Your Thoughts

[rookie]

Roger Fogg, in his book "A Handbook of North Country Trout Flies" appeared adamant about the removing of feathers or hackle from the skin and storing it in hook boxes as opposed to leaving them on the skin and storing them in plastic bags. He felt the feathers would get damaged if kept in plastic bags. He was also very adamant about always having the "perfect" hackle for flies and stressed treating them very gently to maintain their perfection.

I have seen other threads or comments where the skins were stored in plastic bags and the feathers remaining on the skin as this way, they were already sorted by size.

Just wondering what thoughts others have?

[Mike-Connor]

I have seen other threads or comments where the skins were stored in plastic bags and the feathers remaining on the skin as this way, they were already sorted by size.

Just wondering what thoughts others have?

If one stores the skins properly there is no problem. The main argument for removing feathers from the skins is that bugs mainly attack the skins. This can end up with a lot of loose feathers and a pile of insect "frass" and excreta.

Also, the main argument for leaving the feathers on the skin is that they are easily stored and of course naturally arranged for size.

Once you start pulling feathers out, you need alternative methods of storage, other containers etc. and this can be a lot of bother.

Personally I don't think it is worth going to the trouble of removing feathers from skins. It makes no difference to the quality of the feathers.

Feathers ( like hair) consist mainly of keratin, and the substance is dead as soon as it grows out of the follicle;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feather

Feathers can dry out though and become brittle. Light and air are both detrimental, so feathers should be stored in airtight containers in dark places. Also no paper or wood should touch them, as acids and alkalis will quickly cause the feathers to break down.

After dyeing, washing, or other similar treatment, feathers must be very thoroughly rinsed as otherwise various acids and alkalis will attack and destroy them. This is also why feathers should not under any circumstances be stored in wooden boxes, or paper envelopes. ( Unless the paper is museum quality acid/alakli free).

Some more info;

Quite a few people e-mail me about anti-moth measures, and occasionally about other bugs, and how to get rid of them.

First of all, the main aim is not to get infested in the first place. The most common substances used for this purpose are paradichlorbenzene, and napthalene.Both of these substances only work properly when the containers in which they are placed are more or less airtight. This is necessary for a certain"vapour pressure" to develop. This effectively fumigates materials, and provides an effective deterrent. There is some contention as to the relative effectiveness of paradichlorbenzene and napthalene, but both do work Most museums use napthalene to preserve their collections. Putting these substances loose in drawers, cupboards etc, is only a mild deterrent,and causes an uneccessarily strong smell, which may upset other family members, contaminate clothes etc. Constant exposure to the resulting fumes is also not a good idea. I have seen formaldehayde advised as bug killer and deterrent, but I think this is best avoided, as are some other strong poisons.

Both Paradichlorbenzene and Napthalene are toxic, and are suspected carcinogens, so avoid unnecessary handling of them. Anything that kills or deters bugs is bound to be unhealthy, so use some common sense when using such substances. Some woods and herbs, like cedar, sandalwood, lavender, and one or two others, are said to be effective deterrents. Personally I would not rely on this too heavily. In this case, the chemicals mentioned are better.

Most people seem mainly worried about moths, these, however, are not the only pests which may attack your fly-dressing materials. Among the most common are Carpet beetles, feather mites, ants, various termites, and there is a whole host of others. It may be of mild academic interest to determine which bugs are presently chomping their way through your expensive and treasured materials, but it really does not matter much in the final analysis.

The substances mentioned, will not kill many of these pests once they have infected your materials, they simply act as a deterrent. Most especially the eggs of some pests are notoriously hard to remove, and killing the adults, or larvae is not a lot of use, as the eggs simply hatch out and you have the whole problem all over again. If you find anything at all crawling about in your materials, then you must immediately assume the worst, and act accordingly, as you will otherwise most likely lose a good proportion, if not all of your materials.

DO NOT DELAY !!!!!! Act immediately.


The most effective way of getting rid of most potential or actual pests is by washing your materials in warm ( hand hot )soapy water, and rinsing very thoroughly.. This will also improve many materials with regard to their appearance, and handling qualities. The hot water also kills most insects and germs. ( Leave the materials in hot water for at least ten minutes).

Unpack all the material, any bags or boxes etc which are infected, should be discarded. Anything which may not be washed and subjected to the following procedure, should be discarded, ot at least kept in quarantine, well away from any other materials, for at least three months. If you can, at least deep-freeze it for a while. If not place it in an airtight polythene bag, or container containing moth crystals ( paradichlorbenzene, or Napthalene ). The bag MUST BE AIRTIGHT, as otherwise the crystals are not able to generate sufficient vapour pressure to fumigate the materials.

This procedure should also be followed when adding materials to your collection. Most especially things like roadkill, but even materials bought from mail order companies, various fly-shops etc, should be very carefully
examined, and treated. Do not forget to treat your tying threads, wools, flosses, and dubbing. !!!!! This is often forgotten, and the results can be devastating.

Wooden drawers etc , should be washed out carefully,. and disinfected with spray type bug-killer. there are several "wide spectrum" bug killers on the market. It is of course useless to use fly-spray on carpet beetles, they are immune to it, so make sure you use a substance that actually will kill the pests you are trying to get rid of. Be careful with such substances, they are often highly toxic, and may harm you or your family if used incorrectly.

If you have used such substances on materials, KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY FROM YOUR MOUTH WHEN USING SUCH MATERIALS. Even thorough washing will not entirely remove some subtances from feathers, fur etc, and the consequences may be dire.

Wash all material in a bath of lukewarm water with pure soap ( fairy liquid) added. Swish the capes, and fur materials around so that they are properly washed. Rinse off thoroughly with copious anounts of cold water. Spread on clean dry newspaper to dry, be careful if you use illustrated magazines etc for this, as colours from these may run and damage your stuff. If in doubt, place clean paper between your materials and the other papers. Materials should be dried feather, or fur side up.

When completely dry, place the stuff in a microwave one small lot at a time, and give it 30 seconds at 600 W. Be careful here, just do one cape or piece of hide at a time, preferably laid on tissue paper over newspaper, feather side up, to absorb any fat etc which may be melted out.

Do not place the materials you have just treated back on the pile of stuff waiting for treatment, place it immediately in clean zip-lock or similar bags, and deep freeze it. Leave it for at least three days, allow it to thaw, and freeze again.

After this you may place the material in either airtight containers with deterrent crystals added, or in zip lock bags with crystals added. MAKE SURE THE BAGS ARE SEALED!!!!! This serves the dual purpose of containing the
smell, and preventing ingress of pests. Of course the bags should be placed in airtight containers as well.

Dubbing materials in open boxes are especially prone to being infested. When these are not in use, they should also be placed in airtight containers with deterrent crystals added. Some dyed materials are not particularly prone to attack by pests, as some of the dye ingredients are also toxic, and the pests die fairly quickly after ingesting such stuff. Nevertheless, it is not a good idea to rely on this, and such materials should be handled, treated and stored just as carefully as any others.

There is an excellent FAQ on this subject here;
http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/petti.htm

Many people may live their whole lives without ever experiencing an attack of pests on their materials. This is no reason to be complacent. If your materials ever are attacked you will be very sorry indeed, especially if these are the result of much time and expense. Some may even be irreplaceable.

I have seen the results of a pest attack on a large box of materials which was sent by post to a friend. When it arrived after three days in transit, the box was full of very healthy looking hairy beetles in a variety of sizes, ( carpet beetles ), and the sad remains of a fairly magnificent selection of expensive capes, consisting mainly of stalks, various bits and pieces, and a lot of beetle ****.

Take the relevant precautions, it is much better to be safe than sorry, even if such precautions are a nuisance.

Important article on the care of feathers;

http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research...v-feathers.pdf

The substances mentioned above, napthalene ( moth balls) and Paradichlorbenzene, ( Moth crystals) will ONLY kill pests if they are in sealed containers, as both substances sublimate, and require a certain vapour presure to be effective as fumigants. Placed loose in non-airtight containers they are only deterrents, and lose their effectiveness quickly.

TL
MC

[FIREMAN]

Steve,

I used to keep all of my feathered skings in plastic bags. They just arent large enough for the saddles or necks. I also used to keep them in the packages that they came in. I think if you were to keep them in the original packages then that would be fine since they come with the stiffer card as a back to them. But recently I have taken all of them out of bags and placed them flat in a drawer at my desk. I think it works better for me and keeps them flat and unbent.

Seege

[Heritage Angler]

Mike - Just wanted to thank you for all you do to help your fellow tyers. IMHO, the one thing that designates a tyer as one of the greats isn't what they accomplish for themselves, but rather what they do to help others. Please keep raising the bar...........Ed

[Mike-Connor]

Mike - Just wanted to thank you for all you do to help your fellow tyers. IMHO, the one thing that designates a tyer as one of the greats isn't what they accomplish for themselves, but rather what they do to help others. Please keep raising the bar...........Ed

That really is most kind of you, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

Many people helped me over the years, and I am obliged to return the favours as best I can. Also, I enjoy doing it!

Regards and tight lines!

Mike

[ducksterman]

Well, I can't match Mike's dissertation but here are a few random thoughts.

Used to pluck many a duck with a machine...creating a lot of loose feathers off the skin... and was told that critters besides attacking the skin also go after the material inside the quill and reside there unobserved...IMO this becomes less of a factor as the feathers age.

Some of you may think this stuff is too strong but it has worked for me...No Pest Strips...I was turned onto them by Al Campbell...

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/n...ote=1&p=268029

We have a habit of leaving our doors open in the late summer and fall...nice Oregon weather, you know....every year we get some gnts that come in enough to be annying...this year as I started to see them I put out a No Pest strip and only saw one gnat in two months in another part of the house..only saw it once.
Anyway, some say it's too strong ...and made the sad observation of what Al died of...who knows...but I'm too long in the tooth to worry about it....

As far as plucking featers off a processed skin...I'm with those that say leave it on...I found skinning harvested birds for the most part was too much trouble so I hand picked the feathers I wanted... and store the loose feathers in hopefully air tight containers..they probably aren't ...but I've had no problem.

Re: freezer...good idea but not fool proof...eggs and cyts can last...hence repeat...I've got some ducks in the freezer that may have been there a decade.

Re: microwave...good idea but some folks sy some critters don't have enough water content to heat up...

I hate the smell of mothballs ,etc.

I don't seem to have a size problem storing capes in the largest ziplocs

Oh, and the most critter invested critters I have come across are Rockchucks...too bad... the Oregon ones have some great fur.


Well, so much for my FAOL work around to post an active link...nothing works on this Al Campbell article ....here's what to look for

February 2nd, 2004
Don't Bug Me!
Al Campbell

[hap]

I have been buying whole skins from Denny and they seem to fit just fine in the monster zip-locks... with a whole bunch of other skins. I prefer all my feathers on skins and go out of my way to get them that way.

I made two trips outside last year to shoot birds and saved whole skins both times.

[Ron Eagle Elk]

I prefer my feathers on whole skins. The trick is to keep them bug free. Following the suggestions made by Mike and others will keep that from being a problem.

Speaking of whole skins, Hap, I have a beautiful partridge skin that my wife tells me you are responsible for. My friend, that is the finest pelt I've ever seen. Beautiful plummage and well preserved. Thank you.

REE

[Bakerloo]

Mike - Just wanted to thank you for all you do to help your fellow tyers. IMHO, the one thing that designates a tyer as one of the greats isn't what they accomplish for themselves, but rather what they do to help others. Please keep raising the bar...........Ed

Heritage Angler, I was tring to think of something nice to say to Mike regarding all of his tips and tricks. You wrote exactly what I was thinking.
Cheers to both you and Mike Conner!

[DG]

I once plucked a Hungarian partridge and put it in a ziplock. A Hun has, oh, two thousand body feathers, give or take. Darned if I can find the feathers I want when I open that bag. Mother nature conveniently arranges feathers on the outer surface of birds, and puts the same feathers in the same place on each bird, which makes it easy to locate the right feather every time. I stick with that.

I have skins, hackles, etc that are 20+ years old, and there is nothing wrong with them. Store them well, treat for bugs if needed, and they will last quite a while.

As for the "perfect" feather to use for each fly, well, some people are Type "A", and some are not. I am not, and the only judge of my flies' appearance that I value is the fish.