Is Simms going cheap?

[Hoochman]

I was in a shop the other day and saw the new Simms line (well part of it) when the rep was visiting (nice guy by the way). It seems they have a few low end waders coming out but they looked kinda cheap. They were Gore Tex, but the fabric seems thin and not like their older waders. They are under three hundred bones, but just don't look or feel tough and I think they're being made in China.

My question is does anyone really care if something is Gore Tex anymore when some companies are building non Gore waders that are super high quailty? I read an article on breathable waders a few months ago and it was saying how Gore isn't really the only "best" ticket in town anymore. It's techie but apparently some other fabrics are coming into their own. I just wonder if some folks are not riding the Gore label to sell product. I overheard a few things that I'm gonna keep quiet cause I may have not heard them right, but all I'm gonna say is I'm researching my next pair of waders very closely.

Bryan

[Wild One]

While I don't know a ton about waders, I think that just about every outdoor clothing manufacturer is working on a Gore-Tex equivalent.

Mountain Hardwear (used to be an awesome climbing brand--but is starting to sell out just like The North Face) has been working for a few years to produce their Gore replacement. They had quite a few jackets, pants and gloves and sleeping bags come out that had this breathable material instead of gore-tex, but I did not experience the same quality and/or breathability as Gore-Tex.
I'm still a Gore-Tex junkie and probably will be forever because I know it works.

I don't think they've continued to persue it though, because the last jacket I bought from them was PacLite Gore-Tex.

Simms might be trying something similar

[Mato Kuwapi]

I'm out of touch with the reps now so I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Simms has started to look at a more moderate priced line of clothing and gear. It's happened to most of the "premium" brand outfitters out there, sooner or later. If they want to stay in business, it's an unfortunate / fortunate (depending on your view) fact of life. Moving manufacturing out of the US and on to China and elsewhere is also a fact of life in keeping a company alive these days. It's been a trend I've been watching for over the past 20 years.
WHY? Well being at the retail end...people love the high end labels and product, but don't love the high end price so in order to get the price to where people will buy it, they have to look at not paying North American wages. Sadly, it doesn't help our economy one bit. The good old days (50s and 60s) are GONE.

It doesn't mean that you can't get the same old good quality gear. It just means that the label will be able to be purchased by more. Marketing on the name is what it's about. They will just have a wider price range available. Just remember, like everything else, you get what you pay for.

As for GoreTex. It's the R&D you pay for with them now. They still produce the best of the membranes and probably always will, but does that mean the the others don't work? NOT AT ALL! Once Gore lost the original patent it opened up a world of great breathable products from a number of manufactures. Before that happened...the other stuff was...well... c r a p. There was a time when I wouldn't look at anything that didn't have a Gore label on it if I was looking at "breathables". Now thats not longer true. You can get some great products now without paying the Gore price tag. There is still some not so good stuff out there so it pays to educate yourself about breathable products before laying big bucks down on the table. But it always comes down to the same old, "you get what you pay for". You have to decide if it's the product or the warranty you want to put your money into. Cover all Warranties don't come free.

[Arctic Grayling]

It will be disappointing if Simms starts manufacturing some of their waders overseas. They have really pushed the "Made in Montana" aspect in their marketing.

Other Simms products are made overseas and I am still happy with them. Come to think of it, except for pants I can be Simms from head to toe. And with chest waders do you really need any pants?????

[Hoochman]

I like the pants because they're a bit lighter and cooler. I tried my chest when I'm on creeks, but I like the comfort of the pants. Just a personal thing.

Yeah, I was shocked to hear they were being made in China. I know folks like William Joseph, Cloudveil, and Patagonia are made overseas. Quality is good, so I assume Simms will be, too.

[nb_ken]

in order to get the price to where people will buy it, they have to look at not paying North American wages.

Note: this is an honest question -- Not a troll.

I've always been curious about this. Apparently the issue of US wages is real since it seems like almost all consumer-goods manufacturing is going over seas. Still, the numbers don't make all that much sense to me. Is there anyone in the business who can educate me?

Say an American company is trying to sell a pair of $300 waders that takes a factory one man-hour to assemble. If the assembly is done by US workers, that hour might cost $25 (wages + benefits + taxes). Contracted to Asia, maybe that hour would cost $5 (wages + shipping). Difference is $20.

Is that enough to force the issue? Will enough consumers pay $300 for that pair of waders to keep the company going but refuse to buy the waders for $320? Or maybe they split the difference. Plenty of profit and plenty of customers at $290, but not enough of either at $310?

Obviously, that $20 on a $300 (+/-) item is a huge deal or manufacturers wouldn't be fleeing the US. Right?

[Flyguy5910]

i just went on their site and every pair of waders says this: Every pair manufactured and tested in Bozeman, Montana.

[Hoochman]

Yes, Flyguy, but we're talking about the new ones for 09 that I happened to see while shopping at a local shop when the rep was in. I'm not positive, but the shop guy told me some of Simms new waders were going to be made overseas.

NB_Ken, good point. I'd be curious to see that, too.

[hutjensmpg]

Say an American company is trying to sell a pair of $300 waders that takes a factory one man-hour to assemble. If the assembly is done by US workers, that hour might cost $25 (wages + benefits + taxes). Contracted to Asia, maybe that hour would cost $5 (wages + shipping). Difference is $20.

I work for a large corporation in engineering and we've sent some stuff overseas and I think the numbers go more like this, based on the numbers run when we automate lines to use fewer people:

American hourly wages are right in that $25/hr range, depending on region. BUT, the the full load labor cost, which accounts for health and retirement benefits, SS tax, workers comp, etc, usually runs in the $45-$50 range. And the overseas wages usually run more like $5/day vs $5/hr and with whatever small benefits are offered (usually something like free lunch), might be $10/day maximum, and that day is usually more in the 10 hour range than 8 hours. So that's approximately $450/day vs. $10/day, which makes a much more compelling argument. Add to that much lower land cost and cheaper power, etc. and you've got a tough situation.

The good news is that this situation seems to be rapidly changing as China in particular becomes more affluent. With the cost of energy rising combined with the demand for wages increasing this could stem the overseas tide somewhat in the future. But the American worker will still have to be much more productive (ie running automation vs doing manual labor) to be competitive.

[loufly]

Yes, they are going cheap and yes they are selling out. They are about profit. That is why they sell waders for $700. It cost manufactures pennies on the dollar to produce their products. If they really are sending work overseas it is just another slap in the face to American workers and consumers. I have never bought anything with the Simms name on it anyways so no harm no foul. I pity the person that buys those $300 waders made by Simms. You are not getting what you are paying for and that is unethical on Simms part.