Ethanol (E85) in my truck, at $2 a gallon!

[hazmat]

Hopefully, unless government gets too intrusive. They usually foul up everything they touch.

This is the part of the whole shmegega that worries me the most. Seems to me that our government wants intrusion to lead the way rather than the market, depending on whose mouth happens to be making the words. We'll see, I suppose.

[MikieFinn]

Very interesting topic.

Just recently read something like this. Oil companies are collecting a lot of cash for fossil fuels. Someone else who has interests in agriculture wants a piece of that pie. It's that simple. In the end the economy will decide what we will use for fuel or engine. I agree with Bobinmich unless the goverment screws the whole thing the market will decide.

BTW. My latest set of wheels can run on E85. I looked everwhere and did not see any gas station that would sell it.
I guess it's like with HDTV - everybody was supposed to have it by 2006 but the marked made it otherwise...
I have seen soooooo many false predictions for the future that this one earns olu a HUH!!! from me.

[Bamboozle]

Alcohol was meant to be drunk not driven...

...I'll take my corn squeezings straight up please!

[tyler]

the reson bio-diesel and ethanol are important as oil alternatives really has little to do with saving ther planet, although it does "seem" greener. The major value is in the fact that oil reserves are going to be gone in the near future. I suspect many of the people on here will see it in their lifetimes...I certainly expect to.

And you know this how?

Tyler

[ducksterman]

"I guess it's like with HDTV - everybody was supposed to have it by 2006 but the marked made it otherwise..."

Don't confuse digital with HDTV.

[Flyrodde]

One thing that should be clairified. Most of the energy wasted in this country is not in cars and trucks, but in homes and industry. While transportation is a major part, over half of the energy used is not in transportation. Newer more efficient vehicles are a start, but only a start. Mass transit systems use less energy per person and can be regulated more closely. But it is only feasable in more heavily populated areas. As for ethanol, the quote on useing 3 to make 1 isn't exactly right. It takes as much energy in 3 gallons of ethanol to create 4 gallons. However, their are ways not yet widely accepted to up that. Using cellulose as opposed to starch. Corn farmers will not be happy about that. Hemp farmers will love it.

Back to the other reason for my post. Industry and Homes. Most of the energy wasted and the source of most our greenhouse gasses come from them. You can start, if you want to, by insulating your home adiquatly. Using the most efficient appliances. Not cranking your heat, or AC. It is much more efficient to use a sweater or take one off than heating or cooling space you aren't even in. Industry can be affected by the government, so get involving in your local one. It can also be effected by the consumer. If companies start realizing that a slight increase in opperating cost to make things more effecient will draw more consumers to their product, well guess what will happen.

It's not about what you think is happening in the world, or who thinks global warming or energy crisis is around the corner. Or about religion or politics, which are far too close for my liking, but that is a different topic. If you do just a couple things to conserve energy, you will also conserve money. And money talks for a lot of people. After you save some, you might just realize that conserving isn't all that bad. Do it some more and save more, tell some friends and soon a lot of people are doing it and energy costs as a whole start going down and then some real progress can be made. We all love and cherish the outdoors. Look back and see all the problems the industrial revolution has cause for the outdoors. Some people are trying to heal some of those problems. If only we could all work together. Just don't look the other way anymore. Just give change a try before you say no.

[danbob]

We did fire dept. training with E-85 last night, so that our firefighters could learn to identify E85 at the scene of a motor vehicle accident, and to learn the differences in extinguishing them. We burned a turkey roaster pan with gas and one with E85. After burning a cup of each, the gas pan was covered in soot. The E85 pan was perfectly clean. At least there's a reduction on emissions on the user end with E85--though what the tractor, combine, etc. to grow the corn were burning is a different question.
DANBOB

[Rev Rob]

I went to riding a bike last year ~~ a motorcycle. I get about 45 mpg ~~ I ride for two-three weeks on a tank and it takes less than $12.00 to fill it up. Not to mention the fun of riding.

[EdD]

This is a long ramble - feel free to skip it.

To refrain from using crops to produce fuel based on the idea that we are shorting the hungry is badly misplaced. Hunger in the world today, and even in medieval Europe, is far more a matter of distribution than production. Writers in the middle ages reported that while people were staving in western Europe, warehouses full of wheat were rotting in what is now the Ukraine and the Black Sea area because shippers were not allowed to import it to feed the hungry. The problem is that the people who are starving cannot afford food, or that political power denies them access to food, not that food in abundance doesn't exist.

When I was an agriculture major in school, we were told that a man was coming to speak about hunger and the evils of coffee production in South America. We were strongly advised to attend and engage in intelligent discourse. I went. His whole thing was that coffee is evil because it made the poor in South America hungry. He said that all of the coffee trees should be cut down and wheat should be planted instead. Then everybody would be happy. He took questions & comments from the students. I waited until I was called on. I pointed out that each pound of coffee was worth about 3 bushels of wheat at the then current US prices. I pointed out that even if all of the coffee trees were grubbed up, that the land and crops would still belong to the big landowners and that the poor would still do without. I also pointed out, using his own statistics, that the coffee growing areas of South America could produce far more value growing coffee and with coffee the wealth generated would allow them to buy several times the amount of US wheat over what they could have grown. The problem was one of distribution of resources. The next day I was reprimanded for making him look a fool. (I have given the short version here. I gave him the long version.)

Using corn to produce alcohol doesn't deprive hungry of food. Being poor deprives the hungry of food. Believe me, I can outbid Chevron for a bushel of corn if I am hungry. Thus I have access to food. I dearly hope that condition remains. Corn mash, after it has produced alcohol, can be used to feed livestock. Beet pulp, after making sugar, can be fed to livestock. This is mulitple use. We can grow a lot of sugar cane. That can be converted into bio-fuel, alcohols.

Bio-diesel has different problems. Many people seem to be counting on soybeans to produce the vegetable oil. Soybeans have a whole host of problems included soybean cyst nematode, antracnose, and other pests and diseases. Crop rotations are a good way to reduce these problems. OSR (Oil Seed Rape - a mustard) a.k.a. colza, a.k.a. canola, is another option. The cake, or dry residue, left behind after cold-pressing can be used as feed for some types of livestock. It is poisonous to others. I think that all of the cake left after hot-pressing is considered toxic and can best be used as organic fertilizer.

Bio-fuels will not solve all of our problems, but they can certainly help. Windmills and hydro-electric power are not going to solve all of our problems, but they can certainly help. Conservation is the same. This is not a simple problem and will not be solved simply, but I don't intend to turn me back on viable alternatives. I like the idea of not giving vast sums of money to some of the people whose ideology involves killing or dominating me. It is another part of the situation. If and when we get desperate enough, i.e. there is a demand, then supply can be generated from a number of sources. Small-scale turbines can be attached to bridge abutments and piers and protected by trash racks. Sewer treament plants can be used to produce methane. Wind turbines can be placed in many places. Solar power can be used. It is mainly a matter of economics. Many people would be surprised by how closely economics, ecology, and game theory are related and how easy it is for a professional in one of those fields to move to another. Latin is not the universal language. English is not the universal language. Math probably IS the universal language. (I won't rule out Love.) Eloquence is to be valued.

P.S. I prefer field corn, dent corn, to sweet corn. It is what I was raised on.

Ed

[Marco]

Actually EdD, you had me riveted . If your presentation was longer, I would have read it all. Nice to see the varied and diverse interests represented here on FAOL. We apparently ain't all about fish.



Mark