Fly rods and drivers

[Avalon]

I have been pondering the similarity of fly rods and golf driver marketing sales pitches. Every advertisement
tries to sell us something that provides more distance, greater speed, less spin, faster action ect. etc, etc. My question is this WHO NEEDS IT? Has another glacier gone through and widened all of the rivers in North America? OK, I am older then most of you, (55-60), but I have fished every major river in New England, and several out west, and I can't for the life of me find the need for a rod that shoots line like a cannon, other then salt water into the wind. I pulled out some Orvis and LL Bean catalogues from 1971 tonight and the all of the rods are 71/2 foot 5 wt, and 8' 6 wt. They did not offer a 9' rod back then other for a 9 weight line. I have a much easier time bringing a fish to net with an 8' rod, instead of a 9 ft rod. Why are all of the rods made by ALL of the major rod builders 9'? The same reason drivers have heads as big as pumpkins. No one wants to learn the proper techniques. How many times do you really need to cast more then 45'? How many times more then 30'? Why can't I find a 8' 6 wt new rod today? I would appreciate some feedback on this, I don't think I am alone on this one.

Dear sport,

I don't want to appear argumentative, OK I do, but rod length vs. casting and fishing is a matter of personal preference and nothing more.

One hundred years ago when men were men and rods were made out of solid sticks of greenwood and to a lesser extent bamboo rod lengths were almost never shorter than 9 foot and often reached 11 or 12 feet.

I'm not sure I'd like to fish with an 11 foot solid wood rod but I quite often fish with a 9 foot bamboo and I like it.

A 9 foot rod offers reach and mending advantages that blow shorter rods away. If fishing in brushy or tight confines is your pleasure you can always move your hand above the grip on a longer rod to cast and "choke up" much like in golf. Chokeing down is impossible in both sports.

I realize that there are different strokes for different folks and know my opinions are not widely held. Having said that an 8' 6 weight weight makes even less sense to me than a 3/4 or 1 ton pick-up truck with a 6 foot bed, but they make them now too.

Best Wishes,
Avalon

[Jim Sentell]

Avalon,,,

You''l like this article; talks about the resurgence in longer bamboo rods. Six and seven footers gained popularity mainly in the east on small streams and brushy areas.

Maybe learning and practicing to load a short backcast and shooting or rollcasting would help the eastern problem. I've had no problem with 8.5 or 9's on any of the PA streams I've fished.

Again, the original complaint was super-fast rods being shoved down our throats by the industry. Of course, you can't grasp that because you're using a nice smooth, easy and relaxed casting bamboo made for FISHING (said with tongue in cheek)!

Jim

[flyfishBDS]

Just had a very similar question asked on another forum. I'm just another fly fisher with a personal bias on certain rods, but running a flyshop/and writing a new gear column for a mag probably means I ponder these things more than a sane man should so for what its worth.


Advertising is advertising, what would u say if you saw a "Savis" ad saying this rod isn't worth your time. LOl

Different rod weights, lengths, actions, colors, aesthetics, price points, do different jobs (first 3 categories) and appeal to individual fly fishers.

Rod manufacturers are driven by what their perception is of what the market wants _ past sales and discussions, forums etc etc. Rod designers are constantly refining tinkering with new rods but we only get to see them when sales of the previous edition have slowed to a threshold point.

Sales trends determine what happens in rod design. Go back 15-20 years and everyone wanted higher modulus until the market discovered that reaching too far mean an incredibly fragile rod. 5-10 years ago and the race was speed _ faster is better until we got some rods which were absolute boomsticks.
Currently the watchword is lightness and I think we are getting to the end of that obsession by fly rod BUYERS. What I am saying is that we push the end of the envelope and then come back to sensible levels.
Its the same with reels, everyone right now wants a pretty large arbor for trout, a Formula 1 style drag system when for the most part they don't use the drag, never have to take up line fast etc etc. They are a waste but a very pretty waste _ LOL I love the look of mine _ divorce present to myself lol

Im not sure they have been too many great leaps in technology or rod design from one model to the next (roughly 5y), 2 models and the improvements are more noticeable. Then there are differences in styles between the rods, and the technology in the current high end rods filters down over time. The entry midpriced rods these days are way better than when I started. There is also significantly more variety, lots more models around look at the proliferation of 9'6" and 10'+ rods you didn't see a decade ago. Unfortuantely that might have been at the expense of "your rod"


So what you are getting in offerings from each company is a distillation of what all fly fishers want, which may or may not suit every individual. Remember rods are inherently a compromise.

A 9' 5wt is the most popular trout rod, it does most things pretty well some things fairly and useless for others. More than a 9' 5wt being a driver I tend to view it as a 7 iron. Yeh you can do the whole course with it but your making it tough on yourself.
Your own taste on that too is important, I don't see that much difference really in the physical length to a 9er, but often there is a major difference in action, the rod designer building an 8'6" with a slower action. So what is it you prefer the length or action?

What rivers do you fish too, Im on these slow tailwaters in Arkansas and long drifts lots of mending is the key, so here a 9'er is more efficient, 10' too

Now you said "ALL" rods were 9'ers, I think its exaggeration for your argument but there are lots of short rods around. I have a great 7'6" 6wt from TFO and its big brother the oddball 7'6" 8wt TiCRX I think is the best rod (for me) TFO have made. Love casting that stick. I also have a nice 8' 5wt XP hanging around. these aren't common rods but they aren't your run of the mill 9' 5wt either.

For instance Sage TXL and the Orvis Trout Bum advertisements won't push them as cast over the horizon rods. But the advertising does tend to focus on perceptions (real or not) that most fly casters wish they could cast further.

In reality you might fish only to 40' but there is always that fish just out of range. And having rods only built to cast to 40' is like building cars to do 35mph city speed limits. Going to be a pain on the highway. And unfortunately for you the 8'6" 6wt is a bit like a push button automatic, pretty hard to find.

Finally for those who complain that fly rod company only want sales. Providing stuff that rod buyers want isn't a bad thing _ remember buyers aren't held at gun point to buy these.

And providing what fly rod buyers want isn't a bad thing _ remember buyers aren't held at gun point to buy these.

I like watching people leave the shop all smiles with their new purchase or better yet coming back to say how much they love their rod.

Because most purchases aren't about catching more fish, but really for the feeling as you take ownership, the pride/glee/happiness of taking it home, showing it to your buddies, slipping on the reel, fishing it.

Cheers
Steve

[Chad]

Well put Steve,
Although I feel you mave have underestimated the fly fishing indusrty somewhat. Good marketing is a company's ability to perceive and interpret the needs of it's customers and make available a product that addresses that need, great marketing is all about creating that need in the first place. I feel there are a few Fly Fishing gear Manufacturers out there with great marketing abilities. I see nothing really wrong with that. I agree that we as fly fishers benifit from the "filter down" theory. Waders, fly lines, wading boots, rods reels etc...have all vastly improved since I started fly fishing 20 years ago...but oh man, that movie from the early 90's, well that wrecked everything... (just kidding of course)

[Bear742]

Sorting it out requires more than reading promotional literature.

Let me locate the fly rod in the overall process of fishing. The old In-Fisherman formula serves here, Fish+Location+Presentation=Success. The rod is part of the presentation which is all about delivering a selected bait controling depth, speed, size, action and color. So the rod is far from the whole ball of wax.

In the last 100 years there have been points where significant advances were made in rod material. And there were plateaus where manufacturers spun variations with the prevailing technology.

I have to start with bamboo. The first part of the 20th Century was one of those plateaus where bamboo was exploited as a material. Though a good performer, the material was fragile and extra tips were the norm. Bamboo to glass was a significant advance around 1950. The material lent itself to engineering much more than bamboo did. Greater durability and reduced cost were benefits. Glass to graphite around 1975 was the next big advance. Lighter weight allowing longer rods of equal strength was a benefit. With freedom from weight constraints, engineering was enhanced. On the downside "Clousering" became a problem.

We are still somewhere in the graphite period spinning variations. That is why the selection looks bewildering. Every maker/marketer strives to make his rod look distinctive. None seem to want to submit to a common standard for-medium, medium/fast, fast, and extra fast actions. And what is "crisp?" That is how I like my bacon.

Since the rod is only a fraction of the fishing process, find one you like and stick with it. In Trout Bum around 1985 John Gierach said he is sticking with bamboo. Right now there is a growing cult of glass rod users scouring eBay for Fenwicks. I would not go that far. I liked glass over bamboo. I like graphite over glass. Once one makes the big jump to the newer material, however, hopscotching around the rods of the same material does not necessarily get you much. I am not convinced that there is some new generation of graphite that I should be looking at. So I am standing pat with my current collection.

[Bamboozle]

I used to question the bigger, better, faster, longer, stronger spiel since I happily fish rods that meet none of those descriptions unless bigger means BIGGER price tag!

Although some may feel a comparison between fly fishing and regular fishing is apples to oranges; where I really questioned the hype was in the conventional fishing arena. Three years ago the top of the line spinning reel from one manufacturer cost X, while the best bait-caster was Y. The following year the best in both categories cost 3-4 times as much money!!

How could this be? Heck I can cast just as far with my old Garcia 300 or my old Shimano Curado?ball bearings, schmall-bearings, what?s the difference? Heck that reel needs to be 4 times better to justify that kind of increase?the manufacturers must think I?m crazy to believe that they have invested any kind of improvement that would make a product that much better.

Well?

?I hate to admit it but I fell for one of those new and improved bait-casting reels that cost 4 times more than my old best reel. And you know what?it is better; does cast longer, and does do everything they said it would. And you know what else?it?s worth every penny I paid for it and I?m going to get ANOTHER one!

My opinion is; while many new products are NOT for me; I do think they ARE better. You just have to analyze where the performance and/or quality gains are and see if you need or want what they offer. Obviously if casting distance, line speed or fit and finish isn?t an issue; you wont feel that new and improved IS new and improved.

But trust me, don?t knock them until you try them. You MAY be surprised.

[Bear742]

Bamboozle,

"?I hate to admit it but I fell for one of those new and improved bait-casting reels that cost 4 times more than my old best reel. And you know what?it is better; does cast longer, and does do everything they said it would. And you know what else?it?s worth every penny I paid for it and I?m going to get ANOTHER one!"

Good point.

The jump from a Curado-$125 to a Calais DC(Digitally Controled)-$600 is one of those significant advances like going from Fiberglass to Graphite.

If I were sure that what you say about Bait-casting Reels applied equally to Fly Rods, I would be skipping lunches to save up for the $800 Fly Rod.

This thread started with an analogy between Fly Rods and Drivers. Sport seems to have recognized that though the product was different the "hype" was the same. That gives one pause. How much is sizzle and how much is steak?