Oh, that probably deserves its own thread! :p
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My hubby built me a three piece Lamiglass 7' four weight a few years ago. I requested the single foot....don't really know why now.
He built himself the same rod this year with snake guides.
I swear, if I blind fold anyone...they would not be able to tell the difference.
Let me add this tid bit.
I believe there is a difference between telling a difference and making a difference. To tell a difference, one needs to cast both types of rods, one rod with snake guides and the other rod with single footed guides. That is the first requirement.
Secondly, the original rod blank must be soft enough that the small amount of relative stiffening of the action with double footed guides can be humanly noticed.
I think with a super fast rod that is already relatively stiff, it would be very very difficult to tell the slight additional stiffening of a double footed snake guide vs the single footed variety. With a very soft rod, yeah, I think even I would have a chance of noticing it.
I also think that the line rating of the fly rod makes a difference. Put snakes vs single footed on a 14 wt fly rod, and I don't think anyopne could tell which rod is which; but put them on a zero wt rod, and the difference would be more noticeable.
So I don't think the guides are the only factor. I believe the underlying characteristics of the rod blank, ie, rod action and line rating are crutial.
What is most important, however, is whether it makes a difference in the ease of use, the accuraccy of the cast, the distance of the cast, the fighting of the fish, and so on. For most anglers, I suspect that the answer is no. For other anglers who may fish with very light lines and soft rods, or who think single footed guides are superior, the answer can be yes.
I have read all and this is the post I agree with the most....I have a rod right now, it is a custom G Loomis 10ft 6wt with fighting butt....it had single foot guides...I rewrapped it last yr with snake guides(which was a 1st) because of the notion of adding weight or making rod too heavy(trout fisherman mentality)...I wish I hadnt waited to do so...the rod is noticably faster and distance is INCREASED...the rod is so much better it is hard to believe..this was a complete shock to me...as of now I would only use RECOIL guides...the truth is on small fish such as trout it will never matter either way...
I could see the rod performing differently changing from SF to snake guides if the guides were lined up differently than the original configuration. Meaning in conjuction to the spline or curvature of the rod blank. Other than that I would suggest that some other variable has taken place.
...... just seems to me that if you are that aware of your rod WHILE YOU ARE FISHING, then you are not really focused on fishing and the things that matter most while doing that.
Sure, big deal if you can scientifically determine and maybe even feel something different because of different style / weight guides in a STATIC testing situation. But fishing is a DYNAMIC activity with so many things going on that it defies logic to attribute importance to the type of guides you got on your stick.
John
I mean you prolly don't want to use certain kinds of fur and then foam, well, we both know that's the best way to lose flies...but i got to thinking...the vest sellers that include the foam patch prolly sell flies too !
Cheers,
MontanaMoose
P.S. I like the double foot,
double spiral guides in stainless...
Kind of like you dont get around to reading posts?;)
Quote:
Also, I've fished 2 of my rods with snake guides for a combined time nearly double that of the 2 with single-foot guides...and I've landed far more fish with the two fished less-often, but with the single foot guides.
Ease of manufacture, as Sully pointed out.
They were easy to produce, and they wroked well with the old style woven silk lines...silk was/is prone to grabbing onto anything that may pinch or protrude. Most silk lines were 'dressed' with a variety of chemicals and substances to make them float..this stuff rubs off onto the guides...snake style guides are easier to clean (you can grab the guide between two fingers, give a slight twisting rub, and the 'gunk' would slide off or down towards the rod on either end of the guide, getting it off the portion where the line contacts the guide).
They then became a 'tradition' and many fly fishermen don't like the 'look' of single foot guides.
I only use single foot ceramic insert guides on all my fly rods. While not a 'traditional' look, I'm building a modern fly rod and trying to take advantage of all that modern technology can offer. Makes no sense to me to use a graphite blank with millions (if not billions, this is defense industry technology) of research and design refinements behind it and couple it with 18th century era line guides.
Buddy
One might consider that it's easier to line the rod with the snakes, especially when a little age and a little arthritic finger joints come into play.
Dale
Uh...
I'm guilty of something that I try NEVER to do...I read the first page of all this, didn't see that there were FIVE pages...and responded to it...missed all the vitriol and unsupported theories and odd subjective claims...WOW!
Bottom line, it really doesn't matter, even a little bit, unless it matters to YOU.
Fun to discuss, though ;).
Buddy
Just because someone builds a modern fly rod that uses a material that R&D departments have spent billions on, do you think it really matters what type of guide is used? Is a ceramic guide going to cast a line better than a 18th century snake guide. No. Is it going to last longer? No
Makes no sense to me not to combine the old with the new.
If it makes you feel better to use a single foot guide than a snake guide, or you like it better, then it makes sense. If you like snake guides better, same answer.
Mojo,
Actually, YES, a modern ceramic insert guide will cast a line farther...given equal force, the reduction in friction will allow the line to slide easier through the guides. Less friction equals longer distance...that's just simple physics. How significant that increase will be depends on many factors.....But the largest factor in casting performance is the CASTER, not the equipment. High quality guides won't 'fix' poor casting techinque, and a good caster can cast well regardless of the guides they use.
Also, excepting abuse, modern ceramic insert guides will last THOUSANDS of hours longer than traditional snake guides....the harder, slicker surface of the ceramic guide will last longer than any of us, or our grandchildren, can cast through....wire guides really only last through a few years of heavy fishing. I'd worn through a couple of sets myself before I switched to the ceramic guides.
AND, fly lines used with ceramic guides last longer...heat and friction (again, absenting abuse) are the two things that degrade a fly line. The difference in friction between modern ceramic insert guides and wire guides is significant. The older the wire guides get, the harder they are on fly lines.
Can a fisherman tell the difference? I can. But I care about it and it matters to me.
If it doesn't matter to you, then it's likely you can't tell and you don't care about it.
And, even though all of this is true....it's still just a fishing rod and it's really not important in any significant way.
Buddy
Buddy, a snake guide is thin wire. How much line is going to contact that guide at one time? The line barely touches the guide. I'm not going to argue that ceramic's are not better, slicker, etc. but I still have a hard time seeing a ceramic guide letting line glide through it easier. You mention reduction in friction. How much friction does a snake guide have compared to ceramic. Not all cast's are equal. Wind, length of line, fly type and distance all play a part so you can pick up a rod with ceramics or snake guides and each cast will be different. Am I not correct?
"Quote- AND, fly lines used with ceramic guides last longer...heat and friction (again, absenting abuse) are the two things that degrade a fly line. The difference in friction between modern ceramic insert guides and wire guides is significant. The older the wire guides get, the harder they are on fly lines."
How much longer are you talking. There again, you mention abuse, but normal wear and tear is determined by how you fish, how much you fish, and where, and your cleaning procedure of lines.- None of which I consider abuse.
I think that the spinning and casting rods have shown us over the last few decades which is slicker. I think we can probably agree that monofilement is pretty slick. Silicon Carbide is almost a minimum for spinning rod guides. Ceramics are the best. Why? You can cast farther with it!
With spinning and casting rods, one cast is pretty much the same as another. It's a much more stable and replicable system. If ceramic is clearly better there, why wouldn't it be better here? You are still moving line through guides regardless of wether you are casting the bait or lure or casting the line. The line still has to go through the guides.
But the big difference is the LINE. Flyline is just a wee bit larger than 8# mono. Other than the stripping guide or whatever it's called on a spinning rod, I haven't noticed the size difference between ceramic guides put on spinning/casting rods or fly rods. Buddy, are they the same size?
Yep, the line is different. Larger, heavier, more mass, all translates to more friction when it is riding against the guide. If the guides are the same size but the line is larger in diameter, that means there is a larger area of the line in contact with the guide and less chance the line will go through a guide without hitting the guide. The fly line NEEDS the slicker guide more than the mono line does because it is larger, heavier, softer, etc.
Simple physics says the ceramic guide is better, but the cold hard truth says my casting sucks bad enough that I won't be able to tell the difference.
Just because ceramic guides are better is not a dictate that you must use them. Electronic fuel injection is better than carburetors but I put a carburated engine in the old fishing truck. It's inefficient but still a ton of fun to drive.
I use ceramics because the wire guides are noisy and the noise they make when shooting line is annoying. And they look better. I have science, 9 out of 10 dentists who agree, and a Hollywood poll to prove it. :lol:
But then again, it's just a fly rod. ;)
As far as wondering why we dont see more ceramic in fly rod guides...might weight have something to do with it? I mean, current fly rod guides are well-established, and rod makers know to what degree the traditional guides will affect the casting properties of the rod. Perhaps the added weight of the sturdier frame and insert will make casting too difficult?
All you need to do is give them a good SMACK sometime and you'll see. EASILY broken with a sharp, rapid "impact"
IMPO the greatest thing going ( and I never did build a rod using them though) is the recoil snake guides that can ?? fold down..??...anyway...take a smack and come right back.
Mojo,
You can get ceramics in a wider range of sizes than you can snakes...but generally on a fly rod the sizes used are similar.
The absolute 'lightest' guide system you can use are single foot Recoil wire guides...the titanium allow is very light, and the single wrap of thread and epoxy versus the two required for a traditional snake saves quite a bit of weight.
The titanium framed single foot sic ceramic insert guides are lighter than stainless steel wire/plated snake guides, but only just a bit lighter. The epoxy savings versus a two wrap guide is the same.
If you go with a less expensive guide, like the Fuji Alconites, they are heavier than snakes, but not by much. The diference in thread/epoxy from the one wrap versus two more than covers the difference.
I find the ceramic guides on my fly rods to be very durable. I don't intentionally smack them against hard things, and so far the accidental whacks and steppings on haven't damaged them.
These are the same guides they put on heavy bass fishing rods, rods intended for many heavy duty saltwater applications, as well as rods sold for the general public to use for just about every kind of fishing you could imagine. They hold up well to this, and they hold up well to fly rod use.
As Ol' Blue pointed out, the first thing I noticed when I cast with a rod built with all ceramic guides was the sound. They do fish 'quieter', and it is readily noticeable, especially when you are fishing in the same boat with someone using regular snake guides.
I have an opinion as to why the major rod manufacturers don't use more modern guides on their high end rods. If you look back at this thread, you can see how their 'campaign' against them has gone. Heavy..fragile...difference isn't noticable...if they were 'better' the manufacturers would use them...
Who profits from this?
Buddy
Here are my views on ceramic vs snake guides on fly rods.
The guides on spinning rods perform a different function than those on a fly rod plus the fly line is different than monofilament line.
The line from a spinning reel comes off in large loops and the rod guides gradually narrow these loops until the line leaves the rod tip in a straight line. Consequently, the line not only has forward momentum but angular momentum due to centrifugal force. The line actually rotates around the inside of the guide ring and the line is pressed against the guide by centrifugal force.
Secondly, the ceramic guide has a much larger surface area than a snake guide. Although monofilament line is thinner than fly line, the mono contacts the guide surface over a greater linear distance but a shorter thickness. Fly line is thicker than mono but the guide itself is thinner. So fly line contacts the surface of a snake guide over a greater distance in width but a shorter distance in length.
Whereas the the line during a spinning cast is always pressed against the guides because of centrifugal force, this is not so during a fly line cast. When shooting fly line, the fly line "slaps" against the snake guides and they would also slap against ceramic guides. Fly rod guides function to contain the line rather than shape the line from spiral to linear.
Although ceramic guides may be smoother than snake guides, I don't believe there is that much difference between ceramic guides and chrome plated snake guides. The real advantage of ceramic guides over metal guides for spinning rods is their resistance to line grooving (hardness) and not less friction.
Another difference is that fly line is lubricated and mono is not. I believe modern fly lines are slicker than monofilament spinning line. Folks that say ceramic guides are slicker than snake guides ignore the fact that friction requires two surfaces sliding against each other. Since the fly line contacts the snake guide intermittently during line extension, but mono is always against the ceramic guides during line extension, which system has greater or lesser total friction?
I don't know.
I believe the greatest differences are the mass, volume, and longitudinal rigidity of the two types of guides. A set of ceramic guides has a much greater mass than a set of snake guides. This is particularly important as we get closer to the rod tip.
As we get closer to the rod tip, the guides and the rod move faster during the cast. The increased mass of the ceramic guides both delays the acceleration of the rod and wastes energy that could be used to to accelerate the rod. During a false casting we are repeatedly reversing the direction of rod travel. The greater the mass of the guides, the greater the momentum of the rod that has to be reversed, so again, heavier guides waste energy.
Ceramic guides have a greater surface than snake guides. So they have greater air resistance than snake guides. This incrementally degrades the cast.
Ceramic guides incrementally change both the total rod weight by making the rod heavier and the balance by making it tip heavier. I hate tip heavy rods.
As we get closer to the rod tip, the rod flexes more. This flex is inhibited by the rigidity of a ceramic guide. A ceramic guide cannot flex longitudinally with the rod flexes, a snake guide can. Although this effect can be minimized by single footed ceramic guides, single footed ceramic guides still have the disadvantage of greater mass and surface area.
I believe the presumed advantages of a slicker surface of a ceramic guide is out weighted by the disadvantages noted above.
Thanks to all who've replied so far...great input!
Sully, have you ever broken an insert? I have em in several of my spinning rods and I've never broken one. I'm not especially hard on my gear, but I dont baby it either. Might just be dumb luck that keeps my inserts in one piece, I'll fully admit that possibility, but I've never heard of many people breaking them. Not at all doubting your reasoning, i'm sure the ceramic is far more brittle than a stainless snake guide, but its just my observation.
Also, you mentioned the recoil snakes...what's your thoughts on the recoil singles? I may be getting a custom 0 or 1wt made this spring, and I'm planning on going for the recoil singles.
Buddy, awesome post...interested to hear more from someone who's used a fly rod w/ ceramic insert guides. How does it fish/cast/etc? Other than noise, what are the most noticeable differences?
Silver creek, interesting take on things, and you raise yet more interesting questions. I disagree on some of your points, totally agree on others, but its all just a matter of opinion. Nicely stated, and very interesting observations.
I actually built two identical fly rods years ago using Fenwick HMG blanks; one with the earlier versions of single footed ceramic spinning guides and with a spinning rod tip top, and the second identical rod with standard snake guides. I prefered the snake guides.
Someone needs to do the same experiment with current rod blank technology using the best ceramic guides and REC recoil guides.
Yes I have an thank god it was on a cheap POS rod. One drop on concrete is enough to do it...can crack a stripper quicker than opening a beer can!
If "I" were building a new rod right today.. ( 0 or 1 weight) I wouldnt hesitate a second to use recoil single foot wire guides on it. Larger weight ( me personally now) Id use the 2 footed Recoil guides. I would still ( in both cases) use an insert type stripper on it...Fuji most probably but I never had any problems with Hopkins and Hollaway insert strippers either.
Cold,
The most noticable difference once you get past the sound is the look. Rods built with these look different.....I like it, but others don't. As far as fishing with them goes...they cast far and quietly, they are just like any other fly rod as far as retrieving the fly goes (I mostly fish lakes, so I'm usually having to 'work' the fly). They hook and fight fish just fine.
I'd also go with the Recoil single foots for a 0 or 1 wt. Use a single foot alconite or SIC guide for your stripper. Or, be really daring and just use ALL titanium single foot Recoils...
If you find you don't 'like' the look or performance of ceramic insert guides, and some just can't stand them, I'd always go with single foot recoils on any rod up to a 10 weight. The single foot guides, of whatever type, are stronger than the blank, and you gain nothing with adding an extra guide wrap except extra weight and extra work. Unless you do it for cosmetic reasons, I can't seen a use for double foot guides ANYWHERE on ANY fly rod (or ANY other kind of rod except 180 pound class big game rods..and I can make an argument that those should be spiral wrapped and then single foots used on the running guides).
Here's something you may want to try if you really want to understand just how strong guides and their attachment to the rod needs to be. It's a valuable lesson that many rod builders should learn. Attach a tip top guide to any blank, and then tightly TAPE ON a set of single foot guides with just plain old masking tape. Tape on a reel where it would be at the butt end of the rod....run the lije through the guides, and attach the heaviest tippet you would normally use with that weight rod.
Tie the tippet off to something heavy that's about twenty to thirty feet away from you.
Now, pull STRAIGHT up and back, like you were fighting a fish, until the tippet breaks...after breaking that tippet, if you can spare the blank, tie some twenty pound mono to the end of the fly line and try to break that. The rod blank will shatter a few inches above where you are holding it before any of the guides pull loose from the blank.
I've broken 9 wt. blanks, doing this as a 'test'. Never tried to break a heavier one, but the tape on the guides was never even stressed, even a little, by this. I've also fished for several days with a rod that had the guides only taped in place...hooked and landed a whole bunch of fish with it, and the guides never moved.
Another thing I find odd about the whole ceramic-v-wire guide debate...every modern fly rod, and even most antiques, have at least one guide that isn't 'wire'...the 'stripping' guide. Why? If wire is fine, then why not use ALL wire? What are the benefits of using a ceramic insert on the 'first' guide? And, if there is such a benefit, why doesn't it apply equally to ALL of the guides?
In any event, I've found that those who don't like modern guides won't be swayed by any arguments, just as those of us who prefer them won't go back to regular snakes (I do really like the single foot Recoil guides, but they are LOUD to fish with...I've been spoiled..).
It's still just a fishing rod.
Buddy
Buddy,
I think that is a great question.
The only difference I see between the stripper guide and the rest of the rod guides is that when we cast and shoot line, the fly line is released from our non rod hand which is not in line with the first rod guide. The line is at an angle to the guide. As the guide gathers the line, the fly line must go around the guide ring. This creates a larger area of contact between the fly line and the guide ring, than at any other fly rod guide. The rod tip guide has the same phenomenon with the fly line changing direction as the line goes around the guide ring. However, the standard tip guide has low mass which which you want at the tip of a fly rod.
The stripper guide does not actually "guide" the line but "gathers" the line. The other guides just "guide" the line, since the line's direction of travel is already along the same axis as the fly rod blank. If the ceramic guide has any advantage in friction, it would be at the stripper guide.
I don't know if this is THE reason but it is A reason that the striper guide has different requirements than the other rod guides.
And hence that with SOME rods...and SOME fishermen...DUAL strips work well. A "standard sized" stripper with an additional "oversized..???" stripper. When the line shooting gets wild..and your left hand ( if your right handed) is somewhere it should'nt be ( gasp....we all use perfect form dont we???) the "jumbo" stripper will funnel that line right down and tame it
I have built and fished all the different type guides mentioned here. I find snake (or wire) guides to feel like you are tossing "dirty" line compared to inserts. I also find the need to replace worn guides MUCH MORE often with wire guides.....in fact never having worn out a set of insert guides, the tip-top being the most critical.
I also find that I NEVER leave a rod home because of the guides on it nor have I ever refused a raffle rod for the same reason.
I DO feel that manufacturers use snakes #1.....cheaper and to an extent, #2....tradition.
I have grown too lazy to build rods, so I will gladly accept whatever a rod sports upon arrival and I will replace worn or broken with whatever is sported also.
.....lee s.
Stan
Thanks for the great thread. I have read it cover to cover thus far with great interest because I will have to make this decision when I have the bamboo rod blank that I won on this site (Thanks again FAOL and Elkhorn) finished. I don't believe I should make my first rod a bamboo. I could but I wont is more to the point.
I have read opinion, fact and diatribe and jocular banter, a lot like what I get at work when I show up at a domestic run. When the dust settles there though we have to go by fact and what we can prove. So if I can use the same there as I do here this is what I came up with.
I'm not buying tradition. Here is why. If it could be done better it would be. It's that simple. The guy that made them first just got it right; kinda like staying married to your first wife....lots of ifs and buts but some guys just get it right the first time. It happens. I also know that the folks at (name of Rod Company here) has patented, litigated, tested, spied, and spent too much money to say I don't care go with the snake guides its tradition. Coast effective you say? Do you see what (Name of Rod Company Here) is asking for their newest rods? They are not to shy about asking for money, I'm not hating I'm just saying.
By no means I'm I stating that they are the best wheel on the planet but it has been tested through time and will give you "quality use" over time with out total break down. That's coast effective.
High Ball: Well said...well said.