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I use the hanging weight method for furling but am wondering some things about using power.
What would happen if one used power for the furling and did an excessive amount of furling?
If one didn't maximally twist the two legs ...so the weight hanging technique would give a loose furl....could that be over come by doing a lot more furling by using a power?
ducksterman
I'm not sure what you are asking but I only have used power, first a cordless drill with a cup hook engaging a paperclip attached to the end of the leader - furled for ~ 2 1/2 minutes or until it shortened the original length by 10% and then reversed it for ~600 revolutions or 45 seconds ot so. I now use a corded drill as the power is more consistent throughout the furling process.
mcsteff
p.s. When you furl too much the leader breaks and you start over. Good practice. :lol:
mcsteff ,
So we are on the same page....
I believe the first step e.i. the reducing by 10% is referred to as "twisting" each leg and the reversing is the "furling".
I'm wondering what would happen if when you do the furling with power what would happen if you over did it?...would it break then or if you don't allow too much tension would it "pigtail"...or would it just unfurl to a certain degree once the tension is released?
I'm finding that the gurus on furling believe in getting as much twist and subsequently as much furling as possible...supposedly giving optimal performance. They will take the twisting process to just the point of pig tailing and then mark their board for that particular material. Each material can have a different amount it likes.
I'm playing around with some pure microbraid [spectra] leaders and find that it takes much more than 10% to get a good twist and furl.
I've done that several times while trying to figure out the optimium amount of time to twist the lines with my cordless drill. With my jig and pattern, you hear a "snap" and end up with 83 feet of line in a compact and hopelessly twisted bird's nest, approximately 6 inches in diameter! :lol:Quote:
"...What would happen if one used power for the furling and did an excessive amount of furling?"
Are you sure you are not talking about the twisting process?....been there done that :(Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBaldGuy
The final furling does not determine the tightness of the furl -- the initial twisting determines the tightness of the furl. You can over-furl the final process, but it will only relax/unfurl to the tightness determined by the initial twisting (10% or so of length). So use power if you wish, but the weighted furl method works just as well.
Duckster,
Where does reverse twisting come into play???...I have Kathy Scott's DVD and all twisting is done in the same direction...then she/you take the leader off the form and hang it till it finnishes the "Furling Process" on it's own....
I even called and talked to her to be sure that I had this all straight in my mind before trying it myself...Both "Legs" are reduced in the same direction...am I just not seeing the path clearly...
You're right, of course. Sorry. I misunderstood the question. I only use the cordless drill for the initial "10%" twisting, and then use the hanging weight system for the final furling.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksterman
Bill,The folks that use power for both twisting and furling....twist both legs in one direction and furl in the reverse direction..... When we use the weight for the furling it automatically goes in the opposite direction as the twist.....Quote:
Originally Posted by billknepp
Ducksterman
Did you see and understand the pictures I posted on your other thread about my swivel and key ring for furling.[url][/uhttp://flyanglersonline.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15846&p=149291&hilit=#p149291r l]
Knucks
Well Duck,
How do they know for sure when to stop???..lol..as I'd think a wrong guess could have ya eat'in a wad thread..or quite the new and painful hair do!!!... :shock:
I've ALWAYS used power for both operations.
I twist both legs separtately for the same amount of time. I've found that keeping good tension on the material while twisting is important.
I then reverse the tool and twist both together in the opposite direction for 1/2 that time. Again, good tension makes things go together evenly and smoothly.
I 'hang' them, and if I've done everything correctly, they will 'spin' for only a few revolutions (the process can't be exact no matter how hard you try).
Good Luck!
Buddy
My only comment is to be careful if you are using a battery powered drill for twisting the legs. Once the batteries start to go, they go quickly, and if you only use time of twist as your guide, you can end up with two legs that have a fairly different number of twists. Depending on the amount of difference, they won't furl as well. For that reason, I prefer to use length of reduction, including amount of tension on each leg, to keep track of my twisting.
Deeky...one of the reasons I've gone to cord powered drill..
Knuck, yes I did and thank you..for now I still like to feel the tension.
Since starting this thread I've done some experimenting and believe the answer to my question re: to "overfurling" is.... that as long as you don't have too much tension it won't break and you'll get pigtailing...I took it to the extreme and still was able to work out the pigtailing.
These were on leaders that I thought the furling was a little loose...meaning I hadn't initially maximally twisted them...and though I agree with troutgeek...I do indeed think they tightened up. :shock:
As far as Buddy's observation about exactness....I believe the folks that do what I said above are getting it about as exact as possibble....the 10% rule doesn't fit all materials.
"I'm finding that the gurus on furling believe in getting as much twist and subsequently as much furling as possible...supposedly giving optimal performance. They will take the twisting process to just the point of pig tailing and then mark their board for that particular material. Each material can have a different amount it likes."
Another observation...When twisting if you don't apply too much tension you won't get that dreaded "pop"...the pigtailing will show up....then back off to just before pigtailing and that is your optimum twist.
Just some thoughts and observations...what say you?
.
I use a Black & Decker RTX rotary tool set to the lowest speed, about 12,000 rpm, with a small cup hook in the business end. On the furling board I have marked off the 10% line and simply stand over the board and cease the spinning when the 10% mark is reached. That done on both legs, they are then reverse spun for the final furl using an old power drill (the RTX has no reverse polarity - the only drawback to an otherwise perfect furling tool).
Then Shorb loops in both ends and a vigorous freehand whirling to take all the residual torque out of the material.
Rats!
Just tried to post a long message, and "something happened". Sigh.
I'll try the short version:
I use a drill to twist and nature to furl, but I know a lot of furlers who use a drill for both. They just hook on to the twisted leader under tension and spin it back the other way. The only catch is that sometimes these leaders curl up into a beautiful mess when the tension is released, but only sometimes and it's easy enough to starighten them back out. They also might tend to curl more in storage than a hanged leader, which furls to equilibrium. But those are minor troubles to deal with. Fun to experiment, I always say!
At the Chicago Great Waters Expo last year I met some great guys who've made a totally automated furler - just string it up, and there you go!
I'm trying a couple of the new Lithium battery drills right now (wore out another drill-grin). The smaller is more portable but slower, but the larger, faster drill doesn't have a removable battery.
Kat
I'll jump on the 'let nature furl' bandwagon. I have tried to power furl (reverse the craftsman drill and spin it) and did not like the results.
I have had repeatable results with the natural furling by hanging up the leader and adding a weight to the bottom and let it go. By the time I have another one on the jig, the first one is done.
What I want to stress is "repeatability" - I want to build the same leader twice. I personally do not feel I can do that by power furling.
I am going to build the automated furler just to try it (I tend to have a lot of parts in my garage just sitting there). I may or may not like the results, but that's the fun of furling - the experimenting....
Take note of Jack Hise's mention of using a swivel to allow for rapid furling....I haven't tried it enough but so far didn't feel I got good equilibrium...still had to hang it...
Jack mentions it in his long thread on furling.
I use the swivel to allow the leader to furl and do not see any problems with it. Unless I am wrong, the weight is just there to maintain enough tension to keep the twisted legs from kinking up during the furling. When you use the swivel you are still allowing the leader to furl naturally on its own. It will only furl to a certain point and when it reaches that point, it is furled. Once it has reached that point, I will still pull and stretch the furled leader to allow it to relax. They work for me with no problems at this time and it sure is nice not to have to lift the board to hang the twisted leader to allow it to furl.
The method I learned employs power twisting and power furling - hand power.
The jig employs a gear box with a large hand powered gear with a crank on the "working" side driving two smaller gears whose shafts come out the "furling" side. ( The gear ratio is 3:1, but if I were to build another one, it would be at least 5:1 to reduce the "input" time. ) Hooks to which the material to be furled is attached are mounted to the end of the smaller gear shafts.
The jig has posts set for a 40% - 30% -30% taper but the posts can be repositioned by drilling holes anywhere along the board for different tapers. I normally do a 10-8-6 configuration but the set up is quite adaptable to different configurations ( e.g. a recent 14-12-10 leader for a more powerful rod ). Finished length is about 7', but the board can be extended to do leaders up to about 9'.
Tension during twisting and furling is controlled by hand via a movable end post that slides along the board controlled by a length of shock cord and light rope.
Using formulas for various materials developed by the fellow who taught me how to furl leaders, this rig lends itself to a high degree of "repeatability." The only real variable is the amount of tension applied, and I suspect that that has little effect on the finished product.
The rig could be powered by a low speed electrical motor, but then it would require a counter to ensure a consistent number of twists and furls, or some sort of timer to control that aspect. At that point it would be "automated", except for repositioning the legs after the twisting and before the furling.
The REAL trick in an automated version would be the shorb loop !!
I'm going to stick my big Slovenian nose where it doesn't belong, and hope that it doesn't get smacked too hard. I am in the process of building an automated furler based on the following pictures, The pics may answer some questions which have been posed here. Then again, they may be totally irrelevant.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...DSCF0133-r.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g/DSCF0139.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g/DSCF0135.jpg
This furler is powered by a record player motor and controlled by the toggle switch. The wooden disc travels up the leader as it twists, and you are able to tell when the furling process is completed, as it stops at the 1/2" dowel. Pretty neat setup, and I watched these guys doing this for 5 years. In a previous thread, they are referred to as "The Boys From Mansfield, Ohio."
Joe
I agree with Jack, Warren and Joe, about the swivel. It would take less room. leaving the leader horizontal to furle.
Just wish I had a house so I could get my board and try it.
Joe -
Your basic rig looks quite similar to mine. But I think our approaches may be distinctly different based on some of your comments. The record player motor is a great idea. A 78 speed would be ideal for my set up, even at a 3:1 gear ratio. Can it be run in reverse ? Also, how much weight are you using for the tensioning ?
We are obviously in a very small minority among the folks who posting on this subject. Even at that, I've picked up some really good ideas from those who use Kathy Scott's method, that can be incorporated into the method I learned. Whatever else you care to share about your approach would be appreciated - either on this thread, a new one, or by pm.
John