"Turkey Rounds" Abdomen

Hi,
This is my version of a Calibaetis Sparkle Dun.
I used what I believe to be bonafide "Turkey Rounds" for the abdomen as I first saw used in a fly tied by Walter Wiese of Parks Fly Shop in Gardiner, MT.
There has been confusion (mostly on my part) about what he references as "Turkey Rounds".
I believe this confusion stems from the fact that so many of us use "Turkey BIOT Quill" feathers for bodies on flies.
The "Turkey Rounds" are the lesser feathers. I have a photo of the turkey quill feather I used as the abdomen on this fly and believe it represents the "real" turkey rounds Walter uses.
Please correct me if I am in error.
Thanks,
Byron


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...ps534af985.jpg


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...ps24fbfe51.jpg

The only place I ever saw Turkey Rounds advertised is Feather Craft, and I think that was because they used them so much for their signature fly, the Crackleback. I'm sure you can get them in any color there.

If you do a search for "hareline turkey quill feathers", you get several suppliers.

So turkey 'secondaries', turkey 'quills' and turkey 'rounds' are one in the same. Okay.

Looks like you could almost use them in place of pheasant tail for a different effect, as well. Slim, with a little "fuzz" and buggyness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allan

So turkey 'secondaries', turkey 'quills' and turkey 'rounds' are one in the same. Okay.

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Not quite, Allan. Both wing primaries and secondaries are quills. So-called "rounds" are wing secondaries, because the ends of the whole feathers are, well, round, while the primaries have rather pointed ends. The leading edges of turkey primaries make fab quill bodies; both sides of a secondary make excellent "fiber" bodies, as Byron has shown.

Chuck

Chuck,
Correct. Again, as I said in my original post, I think what is so confusing to most is their familiarity with "Turkey Biot Quills"..........these being the feathers and fibers so many tie segmented body flies with - whether "fuzzy" or smooth..........
Make sense?

A web definition of a Biot Quill feather:
A biot is simply a single fiber from the leading, or front, edge of a primary (first row) wing feather. On the feather, the biots lay against each other, leaning toward the tip of the wing. This allows air to pass over them and flow against the fibers on the rear side of the feather, which are longer, narrower, and more delicate, providing lift for flight. This is similar to an airplane's wing... wide, blunt in front, tapering toward the rear. It is easy to tell the biots apart from the rear fibers, as they are shorter, stiffer, and lay closer to the quill stem.
Here is a Turkey BIOT Quill:


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...ps165d1cb1.jpg

What is a Turkey Round?
All feathers on all birds have a proper name, given to them when a species is first established. It is sometimes difficult to find charts of feathers for us to know the proper name of a feather.
Along comes a group of people called fly tiers. We use every feather we can get out hands on. Some of us even come up with an unusual or different fly and we use a feather that either just happens to be on our fly tying table or because it works. Some of us show how we tied a particular fly and need to tell others what it is. Do not know the proper name but call it what we like. (I personally have no problem with this). Perhaps this is where the name “Turkey Round”came from. This is easier than to say it comes from the 3^rd & 4^th secondary flight feather of a Turkey.
I noticed the term “Quill”being used out of context. For info only: the Quill is the stem of the feather. (several different names for the stem) but for ease lets call it a stem.
Back many years ago I tried my hand at Gothic Calligraphy and made my own Quill pens from the secondry flight feathers from a Goose. This was supposed to be the best but they can also be made from the same secondary flight feathers of a Turkey, Swan or Crow.
I think we tiers should try to name our feather choices in our telling others of our pattern by using the proper name. From each side of a stem we find Barbs. From each side of the barbs we find Barbicels on all feathers except from about 30% of the feathers found on a genetic rooster. (these are what makes the difference between wet & dry). NO Barbicels = Dry fly
So, just my understanding, there is no feather on any bird called a “Round”.
I would guess the feather used was a Turkey secondary flight feather, perhaps 3^rd to 5^th. The barbs are about equal in length so the round end can be used. The stems on all Turkey feathers are large and almost impossible to wrap. Nothing like what we tiers demand in our Genetics.
Just my 2 cents worth.
DennyWhat is a Turkey Round?
All feathers on all birds have a proper name, given to them when a species is first established. It is sometimes difficult to find charts of feathers for us to know the proper name of a feather.
Along comes a group of people called fly tiers. We use every feather we can get out hands on. Some of us even come up with an unusual or different fly and we use a feather that either just happens to be on our fly tying table or because it works. Some of us show how we tied a particular fly and need to tell others what it is. Do not know the proper name but call it what we like. (I personally have no problem with this). Perhaps this is where the name “Turkey Round”came from. This is easier than to say it comes from the 3^rd & 4^th secondary flight feather of a Turkey.
I noticed the term “Quill”being used out of context. For info only: the Quill is the stem of the feather. (several different names for the stem) but for ease lets call it a stem.
Back many years ago I tried my hand at Gothic Calligraphy and made my own Quill pens from the secondry flight feathers from a Goose. This was supposed to be the best but they can also be made from the same secondary flight feathers of a Turkey, Swan or Crow.
I think we tiers should try to name our feather choices in our telling others of our pattern by using the proper name. From each side of a stem we find Barbs. From each side of the barbs we find Barbicels on all feathers except from about 30% of the feathers found on a genetic rooster. (these are what makes the difference between wet & dry). NO Barbicels = Dry fly
So, just my understanding, there is no feather on any bird called a “Round”.
I would guess the feather used was a Turkey secondary flight feather, perhaps 3^rd to 5^th. The barbs are about equal in length so the round end can be used. The stems on all Turkey feathers are large and almost impossible to wrap. Nothing like what we tiers demand in our Genetics.
By the way, let us not confuse biots & Quills. Biots are normally harvested from the first 3 Primaries, taken from the outside of the feather as they are much different than barbs stripped from the inside. Somtimes products we purchase may be labled by someone that does not know the proper name? Just because something is written in ink does not make it so. There is always the Commercial, marketing side of things.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Denny

For good info on turkey feathers used in fly tying:

http://www.invictaflies.us/Articles/all_about_biots.htm

Denny,
How does the definition above differ from your definition of a "Quill":

Definition above: "......It is easy to tell the biots apart from the rear fibers, as they are shorter, stiffer, and lay closer to the quill stem"?
Thanks,
Byron

Definition above: "......It is easy to tell the biots apart from the rear fibers, as they are shorter, stiffer, and lay closer to the quill stem
Biots are nothing more or less than Barbs. They do lay closer to the stem (Quill) than the barbs on the back side. We should not confuse Biots, Barbs, Quill.
Term "rear Fibers" above are Barbs. Should not be confused. Our term Biots are one of the names given by tiers to front, stiffer (Plus many different qualities) from biots on other feathers. You can strip the front barbs off any stem (Quill) and use them as biots. Just would not get the same results because they are different. I suggest you try different feathers to obtain and use for biots on different flies. Might surprise you!
One needs to know what the feather we are talking about as to what is it's purpose to the bird. Is it for insulation? help in flight? helpful in incubation? Each feather on a bird has a specific usage, placed there by the Creator. I find it very interesting.
Due to marketing, $$$ etc, we find it confusing as tiers. Many terms thrown out and used improperly by those that want to sell us materials. Not always marketers but some tiers wanting to promote themselves or say a fly. I personally find no fault with this but it does get confusing. The article you posted the URL to is an excellent one on Biots but they call the Biot "nothing more than a fiber". It should be called a barb because that is what it is. Obviously the person that wrote the explanation was not up to speed on Prober nomenclature of a feather. Just a word game? Who really cares?
I'd say it really makes no difference, just tie and go Fishin.

Denny

In looking back at all of the above I see where both packages list the product as Turkey Quills. (not so) I would call neither of those products as Quills. They are Turkey Primary or secondary flight feathers. Biots could be stripped from the Quill on either of them. Then the Quilll could be turned into a Pen or whatever.
If I want to buy a feather for stripping my own biots, I would want either the 2nd, 3rd or 4th Primary flight feather from a male Turkey. Maybe I am getting too specific? I feel we tiers do not need to put up with mislabeling. Maybe they should employ and train the employees more fully.
If I wanted to buy a Turkey round I would specify, the 2nd,3rd or 4th secondary flight feather from a male turkey.

My personal preferance for biots is to obtain both wings from a hen Pea fowl. The first 4 primary flight feathers from both wings yield what I consider the best biots. Having raised lots of them and having the opportunity to harvest them for myself, I have a specific opinion on biots. Again, Who cares.:D

Denny

All feathers:

Rachis = Stem, Quill (normally hollow from the wings of the larger birds)
Herlis = barbs, biots
Barbules = little velcro like projections off both sides of the Herlis, except in the Genetic dry fly roosters we tie dries with.

This is a simple description of all feathers on all birds.

Denny

Here is a link to a site which sells various colored turkey feathers containing "turkey rounds".

http://www.tonyhill.net/turkeyrounds.html

Thank you Byron. Exactly what I said above. Here is what the Tony Hill site says about "Turkey Rounds"

Turkey feather rounds are the secondary flight feathers from domestic turkeys. (The primaries are stiffer and more pointed). The feathers are about 10-12 inches in length. This is a versatile larger feather for a variety of craft applications. The shaft can be carved into a quill pen nib. The colorful feathers are also popular with children and can be incorporated into a number of costumes and play activity.

So, unless you can find someone marketing secondary flight feathers from wild turkeys, I would suggest looking for wings from wild turkeys. Then you can obtain your "Rounds". The term is only one attached to these flight feathers for marketing.
Thanks for adding to the proof of what I said.

Denny

I posted that in case someone was looking for a source.

The turkey "Round" is the secondary wing feather most commonly sold as the Mottled Turkey Quills as shown above. I just "gathered" a few 2 weeks ago...I'll try to get some pics.


"Biots" are gathered from primary wing feathers.

Denny?.....I always understood that the "biots" were referring to the leading edge of the wing primaries which are shorter and much more stiff, and the "Quills" as many refer to within the tying community are the longer "trailing" side of the primary wing where they are much longer and softer? Do I have that correct?

Ralph

Ralph,
Gettin closer.
You are correct on the Biots. They are harvested from the outside of a Primary wing feather.
The herlis (barbs) on the inside are called just that.
The Quill is the stem or proper name is the Rachis.
Denny

Gotcha.....I know the Quill. Just referring to what the industry calls the "quill". :) Thanks Denny.

Attachment 11974

Above are examples from my Eastern Wild Turkey of 2 weeks ago.

Left: Primary Wing Feather
Middle: Secondary Wing Feather, commonly referred to as a "Round"
Right: A Mottled "Round". Commonly referred to as a "Mottled Quill". Same as the round but lacking the defined natural barring.

Domestic birds are the same, but are all white and dyed their desired colors, including imitation "barring" & "mottling".