Crappy Hooks?

We've been down this road before. But since it was mentioned several times in another thread (that I didn't want to hijack), can someone point out what is meant by a "Crappy Hook". Let's see if you can identify specific manufacturers and model hooks with the reasons for your opinion, and know what it is you think you know or whether you just have an unsubstantiated opinion. Oh, there's nothing wroing with liking a brand or model. I'm just wondering what is meant by "crappy".

Care to opine?

Allan

There are crappie hooks and there are crappy hooks. Crappie hooks down south are usually Aberdeen light wire hooks designed to use with a minnow. However they can have feathers, fur and stuff added to make flies on them. I do it all the time. Crappy hooks are just that, crappy. Bad hooks that break and have other issues. Then there are those of us who only have a loose connection between our brains and fingers and type stuff we really do not mean to imply.

A crappy hook hook is whatever brand the tyer feels is inferior, with or without testing. I think the only really crappy hooks I have gotten was a box of Mustad #18 9671's that weren't properly tempered so that the entire tip broke off when you tried to crush the barb.

Umpqua, U-Series, U202 model, size 22

Most of the hook eyes were opened up if not completely straightened out. In my "opinion", that makes for a "crappy" hook. The hooks were returned to Sportsmans Warehouse of Grand Junction Colorado, and I was offered a full refund, or another bag of hooks. I took another bag, and upon inspection, these hooks were fine.

The U-Series from Umpqua, have a duller finish, and their points are not as sharp as their Tiemco cousins. That being said, at half the price as Tiemco, I am still using the U series.
That's as unsubstantiated as I care to get.

crap?py (ˈkr?p i)

adj. -pi?er, -pi?est. Slang. extremely bad; inferior.

For me, the ones that are soft, too brittle, eyes not fully closed, points not sharp, straighten out on a dink...etc. My Mother just loved that expression and we had crappie in our backyard pond down in UJ's neck of the woods. I believe that anyone who has tied for a period of time has certain hooks that will no longer be gracing the jaws of their vise. If further information is necessary, check my BLOG and see what I don't use...

PT/TB :confused:

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Originally Posted by planettrout

crap?py (ˈkr?p i) adj. -pi?er, -pi?est. Slang. extremely bad; inferior.

My Mother just loved that expression and we had crappie in our backyard pond down in UJ's neck of the woods. PT/TB :confused:

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As you probably know, mostly only native Georgian call them crappy and the majority of Southerner them croppy, speckled perch, specks, sacalait. I had to explain it to a friend in Mississippi they were so large and plentiful we would not call them crappy.

I guess I should have titled this thread "Poor Quality Hooks". Maybe that would've kept a few of you from changing/hijacking it and allowing some of us to actually discuss something.

There's always next time.

Hooks that have too soft of steel, and straighten out during use, including in the vise or on a fish (and someone once told me that was impossible here, even though it has happened to me many many times. Reality trumps theory). Cabelas brand dry fly hooks come to mind. Stopped buying those many years ago. A subcategory of this is hooks whose points turn over if they touch a rock or any other object. Small mustad hooks come to mind. They didn't used to do that. Couple packages of these, I quit buying Mustad.

Poor inspection/flawed manufacture. Hooks that have parts missing, are incompletely made, open eyes, no bend, line stamped across them almost cutting them in half...etc. Dai Riki 135s. After several packages of these many years ago, with about a 6% (3 per box of 50) nonfunctional hook rate, I quit buying them. Now in thousands of Dai Riki 700s, I have only found two bad hooks. Go figure.

I fully expect some of you to loudly proclaim that you have never had this happen with these hooks. You can have my share of the market for those, then. I will spend a couple more cents per fishing trip and stick with the hooks that don't let me down.

I've had supposedly quality hooks flatten ar the point where the wire was held by the vice. It wasn't over pressure that caused it as, I was using a Regal type vice at the time. Also several from the same make bend with the weight of the bobbin hanging from shank. A good pack had one bad hook per pack of 25. Recently I have been using a supplier of unbranded hooks. The last order was for wet fly hooks in packs of 1000. So far I have had three or four from this order that I wouldn't use. The price was ?10 ($15) per 1000. I'd have to throw away 40 to be at the same level as the so called quality hooks, When I have finished them I possibly will have found that number of defects but only wasted 1/40 of the money buying defective hooks. Now I price flies based on what I can get these hooks for. If a customer wants a specific hook then I will obtain it and use it, at a premium.

My point is that it is a "suck it and see" process. If you find that the hooks are not as good as you want don't buy them. Don't be conned into thinking that higher price means higher quality.

The other thing I realised is that machine made hooks are often more consistent than mass produced hand made hooks. Think about the hardening process. Someone making them by hand will heat the hooks until they glow a certain colour. Now I'm well into my photography so I know how much colour perception varies. Both from person to person and from day to day for one person. So the temperature will also vary. If you set up a machine with a temp of x as the lower setting and y as the upper of temperature then when the machine reaches a temperature of x-1 or y+1 the machine will stop and an alarm go off. The machine will not wake up with a hangover, or argue with the Mrs before it goes to work. I'm not talking about the people who hand craft limited numbers of hooks here. Some of those, such as the ones made by my friend Jens Pilgard will be incomparable in quality, but you wouldn't be buying these in packs of 1000 or even 25. They are sold individually (and for much more than a pack of 25 regular hooks). For mass produced hooks that most of us use most of the time, machine made will be more consistent. In this area I found the "Handmade" was another thing to avoid if I could.

Cheers,
A.

With most hooks that I have used hundreds or thousands of, I have found some issue with at least a few that renders the hook unusable. So there's my definition of "crappy": not fit for it's intended purpose. A few that come to mind:
1. Soft hooks that result in long distance releases, or even bend in the vise. Tiemco 100
2. Brittle hooks that break in the bend, sometimes just from being flexed while tying a fly. Some of these same hooks broke just behind the point while crushing the barb. Mustad swimming nymph hook. Don't remember the model number.
3. Poorly formed eyes, or eyes not completely closed. Dai-Riki 300 and 320, Tiemco 2487, and probably others.
4. And the showstopper of all defects: A size 14 treble hook in a box of dry fly hooks. Mustad 94840. (At least it was the right size!)

I don't think any manufacturer's hooks are free of defects. I don't accept a statement of any manufacturer's hooks being superior any more than a comment that another manufacturer's hooks are consistently "crappy". And past experiences have not necessarily placed a particular brand on my personal black list. For example, I still use a lot of Dai-Riki's because I think they are a good value. A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation.
Good fishing,

Arnie

Thanks for all the insightful responses. They just go to show that in general, in a wide range of manufacturers there's likely to be a 1, 2, or possibly even a 3% defective rate depending on the specific model hook. Personal question - I wonder if smaller hooks, say 12 thru 18 more prone to defects?
Anyway, years ago I tried an experiment. Dry fly hooks from 3 manufacturers all the same size. Attached all to 6# mono and then attached them all to a singular piece of mono so that all were equidistant from a 'pull point'. Embedded each hook point into a a piece of wood so that they would all be pulled down from the wood at the same angle. Slowly began to apply pressure and pull down. First one hook began to bend and then another. One was almost straight, the other was about 1/2 way and the third was beginning to bend. Final;ly the first did straighten, the 2nd was almost there and the 3rd was about 1/2 way. That was just a little test I gave to these hooks. It doesn't mean anything necessarily insofar as other models and has no bearing on malformed hook eyes. The test simply was for that particular type of hook in that particular size.
My bottom line is that if you want a particular shape of hook, in a particular weight, and in a particular length then you should be prepared to pay for each criteria you set.
Arnie's final comment above is about as accurate a statement as you can find: "A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation."
Allan

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Originally Posted by Allan

Arnie's final comment above is about as accurate a statement as you can find: "A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation."

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Says who exactly (other than Arnie and you)? You do understand what "correlation" means right? While price is not a perfect predictor of quality, it is a better predictor than a lot of factors, for example, the color of the package. Brand name by contrast is a pretty good predictor of quality. Again, not a perfect one, just a reasonably accurate one. It is up to the tier to decide what "reasonably accurate" means.

Thanks for the insight. Right now how many hook manufacturers, we're talking hooks used for tying trout flies, do you know? You believe there is a strong correlation between price and quality. You're entitled to your opinion.

If there is more than a dozen worldwide I'll be amazed. Mustad is the biggest, (because they do the hooks for commercial long liners) There are possibly a couple in China and a couple more in Japan. If there is more than one or two in the US I'll be amazed. Not sure about the rest of Europe but the UK hook manufacturing is all but gone. Partridge is now in the far east, Singapore I think.

Many of the brands are not makes, and they are not going to tell you where they get their hooks from.

I don't know for sure but I don't think it is many. Now if you were asking about mono...

Cheers,
A.

Alan,

Here in the US, or at least based on the various US Fly Fishing/Tying catalogs I get, I am aware of perhaps 8 hook 'manufacturers' (brands): Mustad, Tiemco, Dai Riki, Diiachi, Gamatsu, Partridge, I think Eagle Claw makes a few fly tying hooks, and I recently saw hooks by Saber. Perhaps there are more brands available in your neck of the woods.

If you are not familiar with how wide the field is, then perhaps your assessment of the determinants of quality is based on an imprecise sample? Other than the mainstream manufactures, there are numerous hook resellers (to call them manufacturers would be too much credit) in the US. We could also include the various European companies as well, and there's at least one in S.Africa. There are undoubtedly others. I have tried a lot of them, granted not all, and found that price is indeed one of the better predictors of quality (and variety too, but that's a different discussion). So while this conclusion is based on experience, it is based on a wide experience and not a parochial view that "if it is expensive it must be over-priced and not good quality." As they say on the 'net, YMMV.

Hi Whatfly,

Yes, I am talking about the mainstream manufacturers. Why would anyone who's a typical fly tyer consider, much less know, a non-mainstream manufacturer or hook maker? So, how about providing some example of what it is you're talking about? Specifically, how about citing which particular brand(s) of fly tying hooks you are basing your assessment on and putting them in order of 'quality' from the lowest to the highest as you'd rate them?
If anyone cares to assess the current brands in order of quality, feel free to make your opinion known. But please, let's try and keep the reviews based on first hand experience. Oh, and by-the-way, I don't recall saying, "if it is expensive it must be over-priced and not good quality." In another thread about the price of hooks I did say, "Of course if you're looking for a specific weight, bend, length and eye all on the same hook, then you'll be limited in choices and have to pay for those attributes."

Getting a bad batch of hooks can turn a guy off in a hurry. One of the first batches of Dai Riki hooks I bought all would straighten out on me after a couple fish so I quit buying any Dai Riki hooks. I know guys that swear by them, so I don't know if I got a bad batch or what. But I didn't stick around to find out.

However even hook makers I like can make a model I don't. I like Daiichi hooks and tie almost exclusively with them, but I have not had good luck with their 1100 series wide gape dry fly hooks. It seems to me the wire is too fine and after catching just a couple of fish they have a tendency to start to straighten out.

One thing I can not stand in a hook and will not tolerate, is inconsistencies. There is one brand of cheap hooks out there that I won't mention, that I will never buy again. The hooks were strong, but so inconsistent it wasn't funny. You couldn't tell by just looking at them out of the package so much, but you sit down and tie a few dozen and you noticed one seemed to have just a tad longer shank than the other, or the bend was slightly different, or the angle of eye was not the same. It was frustrating to tie with them, and to me those hooks were the very definition of "Crappy Hooks."

Well, if we are going to restrict the discussion to the mainstream manufacturers, I use different styles by pretty much all of them, including Eagle Claw. They all pretty much perform as expected, and I pick and choose the styles based on patterns and personal preference, with a heavy bias to buying from companies that are readily available and barbless. I missed where you wanted to restrict the discussion to just those styles, but you mentioned Saber, so I assumed you wanted to talk about all manufacturers/resellers. Most of the problems I've had have been with the 2nd tier (e.g. Targus, Saber, Togen, Allen, MFC, GCO, Fly Shop, etc.) companies, and those are the ones I now avoid. After some experimentation, I've decided it is just not worth my time nor money to fiddle with these non-mainstream hooks because of past problems. I do plan on experimenting more with the European companies, mostly because they have styles that are not available domestically, although I'm going to have to be really impressed, because they are not easy to come by in the US, and quite expensive as well.

I try to buy all my tying hooks from Larva Lace at wholesale. I have no clue what 'factory' makes their hooks, but I've had good results as far as quality/consistency goes. I have had a few hooks per thousand that have manufacturing flaws. Things like lack of points, unclosed eyes, nicks in the shanks. These I throw away. The numbers of these 'flawed' hooks runs less than one percent, which I find acceptable. Price does matter to me. I've not found that spending three or four times more per hook has resulted in getting better flies or more fish in the boat, so I don't spend that. I keep coming back in my mind to the concepts involved here. How 'good' is good enough? These are just fish hooks. They have been making them for a very long time. There are no mysteries here. None of us are going to starve, or be ostracized, fined, or die because a hook failed on a fish ( I've only had that happen once, with a Gami worm hook while bass fishing.. hook broke on small fish during a tournament...didn't effect the outcome). Still, I'm gonna let the thing go after I finish playing with it, if it gets away for ANY reason, so what?