Length of 'fly line'

While working an IFFF booth at a local sporting event, a person approached us and asked if we could have the state game laws changed to allow Tenkara rod fishing on Fly Fishing Only waters. Apparently the problem is that the state regulations require 25 feet of conventional fly line
".....and a conventional fly line (other line may be used for backing or leader if attached to at least 25 feet of fly line)."

I have not done any Tenkara style fly fishing so I am not sure how your lines are put together but I suspect you don't have 25 feet of conventional fly line attached.

How do you complete a line set-up for a Tenkara rod?

Larry ---sagefisher---

"Fly Fishing Only" in the state of Washington is being discussed here -

http://www.tenkarausa.com/forum/view...hp?f=21&t=5000


To answer your question - "How do you complete a line set-up for a tenkara rod?" -

A typical tenkara setup consists of a "line" and "tippet". In "conventional" terms it would be "leader" and "tippet".

The line is usually as long as the rod, +/- 2', depending on a bunch of stuff, with a typical rod being about 12' long. Tippet is usually 2' to 3' long.

For folks fishing "non-typical tenkara", the line might be 1.5 x rod length, and tippet will range from 3' to 8'+. So even with a 15' rod, the line will only be 22' long, but it is irrelevant inasmuch as it is Not "fly line".

And most tenkara rods are too soft to handle even very light fly line, and for those that could, you would have a very hard time keeping the line off the water, which is a key aspect of tenkara fishing technique.

Greg, Thanks for the link. Looks like we need to make some changes in the law. Larry ---sagefisher---

As GregM wrote, tenkara "line" is analogous to fly fishing "leader." The rods are so supple that many of them will easily cast fifteen feet of 0X fluorocarbon tippet material, to which is attached 3' of 5X tippet and an unweighted soft hackle fly. Just like fly rods, tenkara rods cast the weight of the line, even though the line might weigh only 10-15 grains, as opposed to the 60 grains of a 1-weight fly line. Most tenkara rods would easily cast a 12 to 15' knotless tapered fly fishing leader (no fly line, just the leader). In fact, both in Japan and the US, some tenkara anglers use just that, a knotless tapered leader of 3.5, 4 or 4.5 meters in length to which a Hi-Vis dye was added in the manufacturing process so they can watch the "line" for indication of a strike. Even a 1 weight fly line is too heavy - or at least much heavier than necessary.

Why do the state regulations require 25' of conventional fly line? What were they trying to exclude? In tenkara fishing, just as with "conventional" fly fishing, an unweighted fly is propelled by casting the weight of the line (even though the line weight is very small). To me, that seems much more "conventional" than say, short line Czech nymphing, in which an angler lobs a couple heavily weighted nymphs with perhaps no more than a foot of fly line beyond the tip guide. Czech nymphing is legal in fly fishing only waters. An angler may in fact have 90' of fly line on his reel, but none of it is ever used. If it never leaves the real, why do the regulations require that he have it?

The real question, though, is whether the regulations are written to preserve the fishery or to preserve someone's idea of traditional fly fishing. Tenkara is no more damaging to the fishery than conventional fly fishing. Same fly, same tippet strength, (and therefore the same pressure that can be applied to landing the fish). With respect to tradition, tenkara is just the Japanese word for the fly fishing practiced by Izaak Walton, Charles Cotton and Dame Juliana Berners. If anyone thinks that Dame Juliana Berners, were she alive today, should not be allowed to fish in Washington's Fly Fishing Only waters, I would love to hear him try to make that case.

Since a Tenkara Fishing Rod does not have a reel, and that the length of the line is normally the same length as the Tendara Fishing Rod, I see a wonderful use of a "parobolic tapered furled leader", with a short lenght of small diameter tippet to match the size of the dressed fly pattern...

I have created the "Big Furled Leader Formula CD" (with lots help and input from Deanna Travis)

All you have to do is send me your mailing address, and I will have a BFLF CD in the outgoing mail...

I found that using mercerized cotton thread increases the cotton thread luster, as well as increasing the thread strength

Steven H. McGarthwaite

CM,

The law was not put in place as a way to leave out Tenkara style fishing. Back when the law was written I doubt if anyone was aware of Tenkara style fishing. I am sure the law was written to try to define 'fly fishing' vs any other type of fishing, meaning mainly gear fishing.

So, we simply need to work on having a new definition to the law that will allow Tenkara style fly fishing. Changing a law is a slow process but we can work on that. However, since the actual Fly Fishing Only waters are very few in WA State this problem does not impact most fishing waters. But, Tenkara fishers need to be aware of the exclusion so they don't accidentally fish in Fly Fishing Only waters. I trust the various Tenkara related groups will make sure their members are aware.

Larry ---sagefisher---

I am providing a more appropriate, non-commercial and direct link:
PETITION FILED ON THE TENKARA ISSUE

http://northwest-tenkara.com/legalize/#more-374

A WDFW hearing on the Tenkara issue is now scheduled for February 14. It is a "telephone closed conference" and the outcome, it seems, will be based primarily upon the specific merits of the petition. I don't think public input will be entertained, however letters to the WDFW could not help but influence a positive decision. Evidently an audio recording of the meeting will be available. Please take a look at the link for more details.

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Originally Posted by sagefisher

CM,

The law was not put in place as a way to leave out Tenkara style fishing.

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I am sure you are correct, and I do not for a minute think the regulations in any state are specifically anti-tenkara.

I do think that many of them are unnecessarily exclusive. It seems to me that regulations are necessary to preserve the fishery but they are not necessary to preserve fly fishing. Like many people who are now fly fishermen, as a kid I started out with a spinning rod, a casting bubble and a fly. I am sure that I was less of a risk to the fishery than my father, who fished his three wet flies and caught many more fish than I did. I cannot for the life of me understand why any state would not allow a kid with a casting bubble and a fly to fish any waters in the state. The only thing that affects the fish or the fishery is what is on the end of the line. If there is a fly on the end on the line I cannot understand why the delivery mechanism matters at all.

Washington requires 25' of fly line. Pennsylvania requires the leader to be less than 18'. Several states require a fly reel. Why? None of those things have any bearing on the health of the fishery.

I can understand prohibiting the use of bait in waters where a population of wild fish has to be carefully managed. Studies show that bait fishing does increase mortality in released fish. I can even understand prohibiting treble hooks, as studies show they also increase mortality in released fish. So, ban bait if you must. Ban treble hooks if you must. Define fly fishing as fishing with a fly - period. The impact on released fish is the same whether the fly is cast by a fly rod or a spinning rod, or whether the fly rod has 25' of conventional fly line. It isn't the responsibility of the state to preserve "fly fishing." How will a warden know if a guy with a spinning rod has a fly or a worm? The same way he knows if a guy with a fly rod has a fly or a worm! It's not something he can tell from his car!

I do not live in Washington, and the people of Washington (and Pennsylvania and Connecticut and New Hampshire, etc. etc. etc.) have a right to regulate fishing any way they want. I'm just glad my own state doesn't have such regulations (except for less than one mile on only one stream).

Here in Michigan the law was changed to require a fly line to block those who were fishing flies only areas with a fly reel loaded with mono-filament and and several heavy sinkers with a fly fished like a jig. Many guides on popular waters were using this technique making it hard for fly fishers to even get on the best holes as boat after boat of spin fishers tied them up.

There has always been a disconnect between those making the laws and those trying to live by (or enforce) them. I guess it's hard to write a meaningful law about some thing that you don't really understand. I hope you can get this one resolved. When in doubt, always check with the guy who has to try to enforce the law. For good or ill, his (or her) thoughts on what the law means is what is going to matter out in the bush.

I do not object to Tenkara fishing at all but laws have to be carefully worded for any situation calling for C&R or fly only waters. If you do not distinguish fly fishing in any way except a fly then you open up the waters to those spin fisherman using weights and flies. Having been on a guided trip where we did nothing but dunk heavy nymphs and split shot under a bobber if I ever do that again I'll leave the fly rod on the shelf and use my 10' noodle rod and closed face underspin Shakespeare 1810 instead. Why a flyrod when you're basically bobber fishing? From what I read and see on Tenkara it's fly fishing to me even if it relates more to "dabbing" than casting, but laws have to define things closely when we start dealing with courts, lawyers and judges...and fines.

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Originally Posted by vicrider

From what I read and see on Tenkara it's fly fishing to me even if it relates more to "dabbing" than casting.

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If that is what you have read, you have been misinformed. Tenkara fishing very definitely involves casting. The cast is very much like a fly fishing steeple cast, in which your back cast is high and you forward cast is down towards the water so that the fly lands first. If you do not haul (or double haul) the motion of the hand, arm - and line - is almost identical.

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Originally Posted by vicrider

If you do not distinguish fly fishing in any way except a fly then you open up the waters to those spin fisherman using weights and flies.

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I'm sorry, but I don't see what's wrong with that. They paid the same for their license, why shouldn't they be able to fish the same waters? Whether it is a spin fisherman with a split shot and fly or a fly fisherman with a heavily weighted Czech nymph, the impact on the fishery is the same. It is my belief that any regulations should be put in place to protect the fishery, not to reserve certain waters for people who want to fish a certain way. That's not fisheries management, that's elitism.

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Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

If that is what you have read, you have been misinformed. Tenkara fishing very definitely involves casting. The cast is very much like a fly fishing steeple cast, in which your back cast is high and you forward cast is down towards the water so that the fly lands first. If you do not haul (or double haul) the motion of the hand, arm - and line - is almost identical.

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I'm in total agreement with Chris; when fishing a fixed-length line set up such as we discuss in this forum, the use of an actual cast is definitely involved, on par with any fly fishing related set up using snake guides.

Now please excuse me for going off on a bit of a tangent. Perhaps my biggest tenkara related pet peeve is the terminology we use for the stringy things involved in tenkara. I personally don't think it makes sense to refer to the main portion of the stringy stuff as a leader. I think it causes nothing but confusion.

The confusion it causes for me may be more pronounced, since I primarily fish a furled stringy, and the stringy stuff set up I use consists of three distinct parts -

+ A main line which provides mass in order to carry along the near massless fly
+ An intermediate portion designed to transition between the main line and final termination of the stringed stuff
+ A terminal piece of small diameter string to which the fly is attached

So for me, I need three names to talk about my string stuff - main line, leader and tippet. I can see how this might not be an issue for folks who fish a single strand line and tie it directly to a tippet. Even then I would argue that the single strand is there not to provide a transition (as is implied by the term leader), it is there to provide mass in order to deliver the weightless fly. I'm not sure there may not be good reasons to include a intermediate transition between the main line and tippet when using a single strand line.

Calling the whole thing a leader may not hurt, but it certainly doesn't help to explain it's purpose. It seems to lend itself to the idea that since there is no line involved, one must just be dappling.

Sorry for the rant.

I just returned to this thread after a week and have to say that many good points have been made. Unfortunately, it seems most comments are offered by those with little knowledge of our struggle in Washington State over the last 25 years to protect wild fish and habitat along with providing a very few "fly fishing only" waters which have been designated as such for many reasons. Hard work, investments in time, labor and love have been the prime efforts by the fly fishing community and the motivation is pretty much 90% resource/environmental and 10% selfish desire to have a little water for our own. If you want to call that 10% elitism, go ahead. Other states with declining and degredated fisheries should take a look at what these so called "elitists" have accomplished. The REGS in our state, flawed as they may be, serve many masters including flyfishing clubs, native american counsels, wildcat steelheaders, wild fish organizations, bass clubs, government management goals and the like. Unfortunately tenkara has fallen between gear definitions. I am sure this will be overcome as soon as WDFW is made aware of the method as a legitimate form of fly fishing. Please be aware. We have a terrible problem with fish mortality. Clearly it has been debated yet no longer disputed that bait fishing kills more sportfish than fishing with a fly. Moreover a fly tied on a barbless hook enhances the possibility of "life after fight" All the line, reel type and technique terminology is a small attempt to maximize the survival rate of trout in lakes and streams that are determined to benifit from more careful angling practices and less pressure. Give us a break here. And remember, a lot of tenkara anglers are new to fishing and have never offered input to regulation change nor been involved in the type of political battles some of the fly fishing clubs in our state have had to endure with great perserverance and grit. If the language in the REGs needs to be modified to include tenkara as a fly fishing method, it eventually will. An understanding and appreciation of the regulatory history in our state will give you an idea as to why it currently is not.

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Originally Posted by Danny

Clearly it has been debated yet no longer disputed that bait fishing kills more sportfish than fishing with a fly.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Danny

Moreover a fly tied on a barbless hook enhances the possibility of "life after fight"

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I've seen studies that suggest barbed vs. barbless has does not have a significant impact on the health of the fishery, but I won't argue the point.

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Originally Posted by Danny

All the line, reel type and technique terminology is a small attempt to maximize the survival rate of trout in lakes and streams that are determined to benifit from more careful angling practices and less pressure. Give us a break here.

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I understand and agree with the goal, but I think it takes the wrong approach. Scientific studies support the bait vs. fly regulations. Are there any studies at all that support regulating the line, reel, and rod as long as the same fly is on the end of the line?

This is not a tenkara vs. fly fishing argument. It is probably much more relevant to a kid with a fly trailing behind a casting bubble. The survival rate of the trout should be identical no matter what the delivery mechanism is as long as the fly is the same.

You completely miss the point of my comment Chris. I was only trying to explain why the regulations were drafted in the first place with a bit of history surrounding the struggle involved. The fly-fishing-only regs in WA existed long before anyone in this country had even a hint of knowledge about tenkara or was practicing it. Had tenkara been a form of fly fishing at the time, I am sure the wording would be much different in order to include it. The current regs only have the effect of excluding tenkara not the intent if you will - there was never any conscious attempt to exclude it nor would there have been. Tenkara simply did not "exist" in the western world at the time. Of course the survival rate of fish caught via tenkara is the same as conventional fly fishing. And I never said otherwise. GO HAWKS! "It's all about the action, boss"

Danny, I didn't make myself clear. The point I wanted to make was not about tenkara, it was about regulations trying to preserve "fly fishing" rather than preserving the health of the fishery.

I don't know when the regs were written, but I would bet they were written long after people started fishing with a spinning rod, casting bubble and trailing fly - and they were written to prevent fishing that way. I believe the regs in all states that require a fly line, reel and rod (as opposed to just fishing with a FLY) were written specifically to prevent fishing with a spinning rod and fly - and thus go way beyond ensuring the survival of released fish.