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Awesome Hans. Simply awesome. Perhaps "chilling" is the word.
Here's a question I've always had: What is the rationale for leaving the gap of bare hook shank between the eye and thread head?
I don't care, Catskills are simply beautiful flies whether "old school" or modern interpretations.
Hey I've recently been digging into some catskill history and I think the space was for the knot that was used to tie the fly to the end of your leader. I may be wrong but I've heard that a few times. Someone else will know better than me.
What were you refering to as awsome to hans about, just curious if he has posted any classic catskill flies because I would love to see them.
Doug
Loren,
The space was left for at least one reason that's in the literature: It is to allow the 'turle' knot of the leader to be tied to the hook. I also think, and I may have read this somewhere, that the space also puts the total weight of the fly into balance(?) so that the center of gravity is in the middle of the fly.
Regardless, Mary's flies are nuts. I've watched her and am amazed at her techniques and how the the tapered body begins at the butt. You have to see it close up.
Great job Hans.
Allan
My first question is what was this first post referring to?Quote:
Awesome Hans. Simply awesome. Perhaps "chilling" is the word.
With regards to the idea about the gap in the head of Catskill flies - the answer about Turle knots make the most sense to me. With any knot where part of the tippet lays on the hook shank (like a Turle knot or a Tweed clinch), the head of the fly would probably be prone to unravelling if it were not for this gap. Also I find that if I attempt to leave a gap, by definition, I will not be crowding the head of the fly.
The first post is about the latest addition to Hans' site. He has a page of flies by Mary Dette. [url=http://danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm:cc049]http://danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm[/url:cc049]
And he has certainly been busy with flies by 4 other tiers. Great job Hans!
Rex
Sorry Guys..A-S-S u&me again!
[url=http://www.danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm:9391f]http://www.danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm[/url:9391f]
Turle knot! Of course! I don't use one so now I won't feel bad ommitting the gap.
Allan,
Taper begins at the but? Please elaborate? Is that not where is is supposed to begin? Color me confused.
Loren,
Of course you're right. The taper IS supposed to begin at the butt and increase the thickness of the body (the taper) as it approaches the back of the wings. However, on Mary's flies, she has a way of starting the body (at the butt) so that there is an almost imperceptible start and it grows from there. It's something I have not seen in any flies, by any tyers, other then her or of tyers of her generation or her predecessors.
Take a closer look.
Regards.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 03 March 2005).]
Allen is correct. The space is for the turle knot. He is also correct in that the head being back a little will blance the fly better.
I watched her Mary hr Mom and Dad dubbing bodies many years ago to. She does it the same as her Mom did. I have also watched Harry Darbee and Art Flick dub the bodys on flies to. They all do it a little differently. Some would roll a noodle on there pants leg then take it to the hook. Some would do the same but with thread and then tie in the extra piece of thread and wind it on that way.
Kind of neet to see how others do these things. I used to do it the same way but I like many others have come to a way that works best for me. I use a little wax on the thread then I touch dub. In other words I touch the dubbing to the thread and with the wax on it just a small ammount of dubbing will stick to the thread. Buy doing it this way I have found I can get a very fine start to the noodle that will be the body. Ron
PS: Mark I have never known any of the old tiers to bend the eye of the hooks down unless they were out of shape to begin with.
[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 03 March 2005).]
Allan,
I'm not seeing it. Would you be sure to point it out to me when we gather in Roscoe next month?
I have shivers and goosebumps lookng at them.....
If the reason for the gap behind the eye of a traditionally tied Catskill dry fly is to accomodate the turle knot, why isn't it present on wet flies and nymphs from the same tiers/same time period?
slw,
Good question for which I do not have a good answer.
Loren,
I think you have to see some of her dry flies next to flies (similar make-up) of contemporary tyers.
By-the-way, anyone notice the proportions on the dries and how they conflict with the way they are defined in the books written by most of today's 'ex-spurts'?
Allan
Allan...yep. Bigger, sparser hackle, longer tails, wings are set farther back and, too, are longer. To name a few.
I wonder..have you ever asked Mary what she thinks about the modernized versions of these flies? I know I tie them somewhat "incorrectly" when compared, but I always wondered how much it bothered folks like Mary, if at all.
Likewise, I know of one tier who had he opportunity (and daring) to ask Vincent M. what he thought of the modern version of his thorax ties. Evidently, it did not bother him.
Loren,
That's a good question. I hope to stop in at her shop during the Fish-In, or maybe she'll be at the 'Rendezvous'. If I remember, I'll ask her and let you know.
PS. Yes to your post below! Hope she is.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 03 March 2005).]
Allan,
If she's at the Rendezvous grab my arm when you ask..please http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif. C'ya then.
Loren , She'll probably tell you that everyone ties a little diferent. Also that some flies have different proportions than others,tailoring the fly to the natural.
As for the gap, I think when they switched to Mustads they went to even numbered hooks and a lot of patterns were in odd sizes. They kinda liked the way it looked and it became a signature of sorts. I could be totally off base here but this is something I recall in coversation.
Take care , Jim
"G" My head is spinning... http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/frown.gif
And why not? This that, this that, this that, this that..."G" exact sience, I don't think so...
Tim
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Spelling and Grammar not subject to judgement... ;)
OK then, here's one:
If they tailored the fly to the insect, then why on God's Green Earth did they use Woodduck for the wings of a Hendrickson or Gordon Quill? http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
My point: Sometimes we get so caught-up in explaining and defining and pointing out who ties what the wrong way that we fail terribly at enjoying the simple fly and it's cherished heritage.
Loren, I'm in agreement with you. I've sat and tied with Mary and asked her a gazillion questions.You would be suprised at how she ties some "standard" patterns ,not at all like the "ex-spurts" proport. Asked why she simply stated "to make them look more like the natural" . As for the wings on Quill Gordons " That's the way Gordon tied them and the fish seem to like them" LOL. My remarks were more proportional than color orientated.
Another thought about the gap after the head, easier to tie on the leader .
Jim
Hey Im really enjoying this thread so far and has got me thinking.
As I said in my first post I've become very interested in the "traditional" catskill style of tying and have done alot of research. Most recently I had been talking with Dave Brandt and I also have gotten his DVD on tying these patterns. After studying Dave's way of doing things and then studying the flies tied I think there is a signifigant difference between his and those of Mary Dette.
My point to all this is that I have been trying to tie catskill flies in the most traditional way I could and to mimic the legends of the catskills. And what Iam finding is that they are all different, would I be right in saying that? And what then makes a good, classical catskill dry fly?
If anyone can help me with that I'de appriciate it as I have tied over 100 light cahills in the past month tryinf to make them look "perfect"
Thanks
Doug
paflyfisher16,
It is possible you may have located these already, but if not this is a good place to compare the similarities and the differences between Mary's fly proportions and Dave's.
[url=http://www.danica.com/flytier/dbrandt/dbrandt.htm:4c913]http://www.danica.com/flytier/dbrandt/dbrandt.htm[/url:4c913]
Cheers,
Hans W
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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier
paflyfisher16- I had the priviledge of watching and tying with several of the old Catskill tiers and "Yes" you are right they all tied flies just a little differently. No two tied exactly the same. I bet if Marry Dette were asked she would say that she does things just a little differently than her Mother or Father did. It is just human nature to do thing the way it best suits a person.
While I was taught one way I have found that I can get it done just as well and faster another way. Nothing wrong with that as long as the over all fly is well tied and is balanced well.
One other thing is that I do not think any of the old tiers would ever mind if you copied there style of tying. The ones that I met were not that way and were happy to show people how to tie somting if they had the time. So if you want to leave a little room at the head of the fly do so. I do it. It was the way I was taught and I think it looks better. But we are all different and some like a head of thread. Do as you please because there is one thing that you have to remember "You are the only person you have to please" So do it the way it looks and works the best for you. Ron
paff:
In general what I think you will find is that the "old-school" tyers from the Catskill Region tied their dry flies with larger and thinner hackle collars, longer wings, longer tails and thinner bodies than do the more modern tiers (of which I group myself). Now, I'm not sure if the longer tails and wings are due to the preference for longer hackle or vice versa. You'll probably also notice that the wings are set back a bit farther.
Years of commercial tying and genetic hackle have caused some of the morphing for sure...as I'm sure have the inspirations of those outside the Catskill community as fly tying walked westward.
I appreciate the old school Catskill fly but when I tie them, the inspirations of George Harvey readily appear. Sy my approach is blended somewhat.
Hey thanks for the replys, you are both right and I should stop driving myself crazy over tying these things.
I hope to in the near future post some pictures of the catskill flies I've tied I would really like to get your opinions.
Thanks agian
Doug
Ron,
Exactly. A few years ago I started a hands-on study of flies tied by the people we associate with Catskill Flies. I have actually measured over 100 flies at the CFFC & M, and in the collection of Judie Darbee. I want to measure more this coming spring. The tentative results are illuminating. One of these days, when I've completed my study, I'll publish the results. Maybe JC & LF will allow me to put them here.
Allan
Ok, In doing some research ,apparently the reason for the gap between the head and eye is ( to paraphrase) "to keep the eye free and clear of varnish and preventing chaffing of the head from the leader". I suppose chaffing the head would cause the thread to unravel. This is from the 1935 Dette catalog.
Jim
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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:58f9a]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:58f9a]
[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 13 March 2005).]
I read that in the catalog also. I have one of them. But I was told by Harry that it was for the knot? See I told you they all had different ideas?
Tyeflies- I bet you found that flies tied by the same person changed over the years? I know mine have and I am sure theirs did to because I saw some that Harry had tied in the 40's and they were a little different from the ones tied when I was there. It is an interesting subject for sure. I always enjoy reading about the Catskills, the area and the tiers. I will enjoy reading your paper when you are done with it. Ron
Hi Ron, Since Harry was more than likely still a partner when that Dette catolog was written, I'd be inclined to believe that these were the reasons too.
Jim
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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:cd6ab]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:cd6ab]