Dry Supply

Hey all,

I know the big dogs of the industry like Whiting have terrific quality necks, capes, etc., but as every tyer knows, the prices are still insane. So what would be the problem with going with imported? I have seen terrific flies on this forum, but my skills aren't museum quality. I'd like to continue to grow my tying skills, but I'm mainly tying flies for fish, not for show.

So with some companies offering imported dry fly necks for eight bucks, why not go with them instead of paying hundred? I'd like to hear from the many experts here.

Thanks!
Hugh

HI Teach;
I've never tried the imported feathers. But if I was looking for more I would contact Conranch Hackle first. Their contact info is on the sponsors page.
Good luck with whatever you decide, and please keep us posted.

Ther is a huge gap between an $8 neck and a $100 neck. While you and I may not need the $100 feathers, the $8 ones are usually not the bargain they seem. Better to look in the $40-$60 range. A hearty second to check Conranch.

I've purchased many hackles,Saddles & Capes from Conranch, and have never been dissappointed. And Denny's prices are very affortable.

Mike

I'm not an expert by no means .... two important difference between the genetic hackle and the imported hackle will be barb count on the stem and the stem thickness. The genetic hackle has high barb counts per inch and the stem is much smaller/thinner than imported hackle. The stem thickness make a lot of difference when tying off the fly and trying to get a nice, neat head on it. If you are tying smallish dry flies go with the better hackle. If you are tying woolly buggers the imported feather ought to work just fine.

The imported necks usually only tie larger sizes and many times you'll have to use two hackles to get the same density. A large portion of the neck will be to large for a trout fly and will go into tailing or popper, bass bug hackles. That being said, I use them for Humpies, Wulff's, Variants and my Parachutes. I am selective when I purchase an imported neck- check stiffness, and hackle sizes. I take a hackle guage into a flyshop with me! Good Imported necks offer the opportunity for a diversity of necks at a less expensive price realizing there are limitations with them. I have several good genetic necks, 100 packs, etc but use them only when I feel a lower quality neck will not suffice.

A lot of us started out tying in the 60's by buying neck loose neck hackles by the ounce from Herter's and we caught fish, even though the flies were larger.

Look into using capes, I like Keogh's, rather than saddles. I've gone into tying comparaduns also. Also, if you are tying two different hackles, ex. griz and brown on Adams, Use a high quality one and a "lower" quality to get the coloration.

Randall Sale
the Kytroutbum

You get what you pay for with hackle, ALMOST now including the saddles again. They are starting to reappear in fly shops at just above their previous price. A contemporary genetic hackle, even a neck hackle, will tie at least 2 flies, and the saddles can tie close to a dozen, all with much thinner stems, heavier barb density, glossier barbs, and less web than either older genetic hackle or Indian gamecock necks, which is what the imported stuff is. There's a reason a lot of old fly patterns call for 2-4 hackles even when they were the same color, and it's because they were using non-genetic hackle and could only get 2-3 turns out of each feather.

That said, if you don't tie thousands of flies per year for retail sale like I do, there's no reason to go top of the line or even buy full skins. In fact, most commercial tyers I know don't even do that. Look at the #3/Bronze grade stuff out there, the new Whiting High & Dry series (what they used to sell to 3rd party vendors), and half-necks. Buy necks or half necks rather than saddles for a wider range of hook sizes, and if you find yourself tying a whole lot of one size of something and require more hackle in one color/size, get a few Whiting 100 packs.

I find the Indian necks most useful for tying larger flies like Hex's. It takes several hackles for one fly. They usually won't tie down below a 12 or 14 and there won't be many of those. The cost of hackle per fly is greater than buying genetic necks because you get a lot fewer useful feathers for each dollar. I would not mail order them at all. The quality varies too much. An alternative for a practice neck would be to find someone who breeds bantams or better yet fighting cocks (Some of the people involved with the fighting cocks may be dangerous) and buy a carefully chosen rooster. My experience is that the meat is only good for dog food but the cape is comparable to the Indian necks

Teach,

If it was just a matter of initial cost, then the imported necks would seem like a 'good deal'. But there is more to the equation. The best 'value' if you look at 'cost per fly' is in the highest grade, or 'most expensive' hackles. That's because the major growers grade on hackle density, thus while the initial cost is higher, you actually get more feathers per dollar with the #1s or 'Gold' level hackles. One of the guys from Whiting once told me that a top end neck would tie several HUNDRED MORE flies than the next lower grade....

That being said, there are good reasons to buy imported necks. There are useable feathers on them. If you tie various types of flies, not just dries for trout, then you will have a use for all the feathers. They are inexpensive initially. You can gather a good stock of different colors without spending too much. I disagree on the sizes available in the imported necks. Almost all of mine will have a few dozen size 20s on them, and progressively more 18s, 16s, etc..

If you want hackle for dry flies, though, they aren't even close to your best value. Go with the 100 packs or split saddles or necks if you are on a budget, buy brown, grizzly, and dun, and you can tie everything you need for 90% of trout dries without spending a fortune.

Good Luck!

Buddy

I sympathize with the OP's concern. While you could argue that the genetic necks are more cost-effective over the long haul, this assumes that you are going to use up the whole neck. For commercial tyers this may be a no-brainer, but for the average tier that just ties to supply himself or herself with fishing flies, it doesn't always make sense to buy expensive genetic necks. When I started out tying over 30 years ago, I found imported necks that were of sufficient quality to tie good flies. So what if I had to use two hackles on one fly? Over the years, I eventually bought genetic necks for the colors I use most frequently. But I still have most of the imported necks and they still work. Most of us want to be able to accumulate all the materials needed to tie any fly that we need or that strikes our fancy. But not all of those things are going to get used often enough to justify an "investment" in a high-priced item.

Someone said something to the effect that "back in the 60's we used that hackle". I remember as late as the early 80's going to the fly shop and they had a barrel of India necks. You would pick through them to find one that might have a few decent feathers. At that time there were better domestic necks available. I don't think Whiting was universally available then. I think Metz was the "go to" hackle then.
Just think though, even commercial tiers used the India necks as late as the 70's. A small dry fly would require the use of two feathers as the usable sized feathers were so short!!!

We are truly spoiled now and I love it.

When it comes to hackle you pretty much get what you pay for. I get some of the mini packs of Whiting and I can sure tell the difference in my flys than when I use cheaper hackle.

teach,

Check your PMs.

Allan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teachmarkey

Hey all,

So with some companies offering imported dry fly necks for eight bucks, why not go with them instead of paying hundred? I'd like to hear from the many experts here.

Thanks!
Hugh

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Hugh,

A lot of good points made by the previous posts. My post assumes that you you will continue to tie flies and use what hackle you purchase.

I agree that with hackle you get what you pay for. I also agree that in some special cases, imported cheaper hackle can suffice. I also agree that some good patterns do not require hackle.

But other than the first point that you get what you pay for, the other truisms are exceptions to the fact that you get what you pay for. Fishermen and fishing pressure have changed since the good old days where just about any fly could catch a fish. The requirements have changed and, as a general rule, the fish are harder to fool.

The issue is how do you get the best hackle value for what you pay for. I don't think cheap foreign hackle gets value in the majority of cases. I've found the best value are the "pro" grade necks and saddles that are used for commercial tying. That is why commercial tyers use them. If the foreign hackle was cheaper per fly and good, they would use them because they are in the business of tying good flies for the lowest cost of labor and materials. Poor hackle increases labor costs. Similarly, if the top grades saved labor and made for better flies, the commercial tiers would buy higher grades.

The folks that are in the business of tying flies have decided that the sweet spot for hackle is the pro grade. The colorations may not be perfect, the distribution of sizes on the neck or saddle may not not be up to spec for the higher grades; but for value, you can tie very good flies by examining the necks/saddles for the ones that will fill your needs.

The best part for the beginning tier is that the hackle will not hinder your tying. Poor hackle is difficult to tie with and is no bargain for the beginning tier.

The problem is that the beginner does not know how to grade hackle. So you need a buddy that has the knowledge to do this for you or a trustworthy fly shop that will hand select it for you. It is like deer hair. Good hair makes for good flies and makes tying easier. Graders are not perfect. They grade hundreds of necks a day and every once in a while they slip up and grade a neck/saddle lower than they should. I've found some wonderful saddles for $24.95. I have a coachman brown pro grade saddle and a matched grizzly pro grade saddle that will tie excellent #12 - 14 parachute adams.

You might also consider the "100 Packs" that will tie 100 or so flies of the same size. I find use for Indian and Chinese necks, but for hackling dry flies, they are pretty much junk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DazWah

just get whiting hebert miner pro grade capes, they are around $35 and will tie down to a size 20 with some feathers able to tie 2 flies per feather.

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That's what I was referring to but I buy the saddles. They are now $29 if you can find them.

http://www.anglersworkshop.com/fly-t...r-saddles.html

Fly Tying 101:

First off, what is meant when one says "Dry Fly Quality"?
If you are tying dry flies, you really do need genetic hackle and NO genetic hackle is produced outside the USA.
There are 7 or 8 flocks of genetic hackle here in the USA and all of them are far superior to hackle that was sold before 1980.
If you are tying salt flies or soft hackle or any subsurface flies, then you do not need dry fly quality. Any legal bird feather can be used for fly tying. Of course you may have to put up with very user unfriendly stems and a low barb count per inch. Your choice as a tier. Things have changed a lot in breeding genetics in just the past 15 years. I know in my flock the stems are all more user friendly. I have no low dry quality hackle. Grade #3 is as good as a grade #1 for dry fly quality, both in capes & saddles. Two main differences. Price of course (higher grade take longer to feed than lower) relates directly to amount of feed needed to feed out a bird. Feed prices for me have gone from $7.54 per 50 lb to $16.84 today for the same feed. The other difference is how many flies you should expect From one skin.

In answer to my opening question, Dry Fly (Genetic) hackle mainly rests on "Barbicles".

http://www.conranch.com/hackle_article.html Here is the answer to my question.

I suggest to all of my customers that need dry fly quality hackle, buy the lower grades and get new hackle more often because unless you tie commercially, it will take a very long time to use up one of the higher grades, unless of course you have an opportunity to obtain a hard to get color, then let your pocket book do the judging. I feel you can not ever go wrong in buying a grade #1 cape as they will tie all of the sizes from very large down to the 28s & 32s.
Stem quality in the Roosters is the same in our genetic hens which are all wet fly quality. So if you want to tie soft hackle flies or nymphs, go with Genetic hens. Not all hens on the market are genetics. Buyer beware. They may look pretty but if not genetics the stems may be the quality of broom handles.
One other thing. My Mother told me when I was very young, Boys & Girls are different. Well, this is true in colors we tiers know of in Dry Fly Roosters. Their sisters are not the same color or shade. Some colors are never or seldom produced in hens.

I am always open to answering questions about hackle. Just e-mail me. Denny@conranch.com I am difficult to get on the phone sometimes.

I invite you to read the above article on Hackle 101 that Liz did several years ago. Even though you already know all about hackle, you might just learn one little thing you did not know. There is a lot of info out there about hackle, sadly most of it is second hand and the expert telling you has never owned or bred a Genetic. I am still learning and have been at it along time. I do not know it all either cuz I learn something new almost every day I breed these beautiful birds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Denny

Fly Tying 101:

If you are tying dry flies, you really do need genetic hackle and NO genetic hackle is produced outside the USA.

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Hi Denny, I don't know how "genetic" is defined, or if these qualify for that distinction, but these have been around for many years. Their necks are as good as many I have used from the USA. the saddles are not like Whitings dry fly saddles, though they are usable for other applications. The flock has been selectively bread for their hackles for many years.
Cheers,
A.
Thanks AlanB,
I was aware of a flock in the UK but was not aware it was genetic. In looking at the site you offered I see where they got some seed stock from the USA and it looks like they are providing some hackle.
Thanks again. I stand corrected. It looks like they have a good dye set up.
Denny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Longs for Cutts

You get what you pay for with hackle, ALMOST now including the saddles again. They are starting to reappear in fly shops at just above their previous price. A contemporary genetic hackle, even a neck hackle, will tie at least 2 flies, and the saddles can tie close to a dozen, all with much thinner stems, heavier barb density, glossier barbs, and less web than either older genetic hackle or Indian gamecock necks, which is what the imported stuff is. There's a reason a lot of old fly patterns call for 2-4 hackles even when they were the same color, and it's because they were using non-genetic hackle and could only get 2-3 turns out of each feather.

That said, if you don't tie thousands of flies per year for retail sale like I do, there's no reason to go top of the line or even buy full skins. In fact, most commercial tyers I know don't even do that. Look at the #3/Bronze grade stuff out there, the new Whiting High & Dry series (what they used to sell to 3rd party vendors), and half-necks. Buy necks or half necks rather than saddles for a wider range of hook sizes, and if you find yourself tying a whole lot of one size of something and require more hackle in one color/size, get a few Whiting 100 packs.

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What Wally says; the Whiting/Hebert Pro Grade/Tyer's grade capes & saddles should meet just about all your hackle needs; quality of today's hackle compared to what used to be considered "high end" is amazing. That imported hackle CAN be used for some dries, especially larger flies (although you'll need a couple hackles for a single fly) but for just about any trout fly, you can a lot better with the genetic stuff (guys like Buck Metz and Henry Hoffman started raising their birds because the quality of the imported hackle was so poor). I've got some Metz #2 capes from the late 90's that don't even come close to some of the lowest grade Whitings. I'm a big fan of Charlie Collins hackle, too - quality's not quite up to the Whitings, but they're pretty good and he has some excellent colors that I really like (doesn't hurt that he would throw in a saddle, although since the hair extension craze, I don't know if that's true anymore).

Regards,
Scott

bring back memories, when we got chicken going from farms to farms. got good one and bad one but we had feathers, then we got into going to see the chicken fights, got nice birds but ran to the big side, also mostly browns or blacks. i can tie size 12, very few necks would tie smaller. now they shut most fights down, and only one ring fighting. but i have some nice necks yet to tie from. my dad show me how to tie about 1948 i still have his vise and desk but it won't hold hooks too good. flyman 3