over-lining a rod, or how to turn a 6wt into an 8wt?

I came across this review on the Orvis site:

http://reviews.orvis.com/7532/9444s/reviews.htm

The part I found interesting is this:

"I got this rod mainly so I could throw larger top water flies at big bass. This rod does that so well because I can upline it with 8 wt. Bass Wonderline on an extra spool for my black Battenkill Mid Arbor IV reel, that's something you can't do with any fresh water 6 wt. I do use 6 wt. line when fishing for bass but if you want to throw the big poppers, you need a bigger line and this rod throws them far and accurately."

My BVK 6wt with a SA bass bug wf7f and I struggle throwing the big size 2 and 4 wind resistant Walt's poppers, and I was considering adding a BVK 7 or 8 wt to my ever growing collection. When I saw this, I thought, why not give it a try?

So I loaded up my BVK 6wt with an Orvis wf8f bass wonderline that I got off fleabay last fall, tied on a big popper with the hook cut off, and went to the back yard to entertain the neighbors. Much to my surprise, this worked great. I guess it is the line that throws the bug, as long as the rod can accommodate the line. Now, I realize yard casting and river casting is not the same, but it looks like I may have saved $250 on a new BVK....

Anyone else surprised by this? Has anyone had a positive or negative experience with over-lining by 2 weights?

I regularly overline by 2 wts when fishing the salt, and I have a couple of rods that will overline by 3 wts and actually cast better than with the regular rated line. Ron

I have a $25 Sportman's Guide 8wt that I used to fish with a 10wt line.
It was short a couple of guides and had a cheap reel seat so I rebuilt it. Now it casts best with an 11 or even 12wt line
You don't know until you try

I think all rod types are a bit different. My main rod is a 6wt, that seems to throw light weight dries better with 5 wt line, however works best with hoppers, and nymph rigs on 6 wt line. Meanwhile I have an Orvis 9wt that has to be overlined 1 to 2 sizes just to cast farther than arm's length. But once you get a powerful enough line, boy can that rod scream out the line.

I wish there was an easy way for me to test cast various lines with each of my rods to help find the sweet spot. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by branhap

I think all rod types are a bit different. My main rod is a 6wt, that seems to throw light weight dries better with 5 wt line, however works best with hoppers, and nymph rigs on 6 wt line. Meanwhile I have an Orvis 9wt that has to be overlined 1 to 2 sizes just to cast farther than arm's length. But once you get a powerful enough line, boy can that rod scream out the line.

I wish there was an easy way for me to test cast various lines with each of my rods to help find the sweet spot. *sigh*

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If you can get to a fly shop pick up an Umpqua fly line scale @ $20.00. Then you can weigh the lines that work on your rods and match the same weight line to another rod. Of course if you are throwing dries then the line is probably a double taper and you maybe carrying alot of line in the air but you can measure the weightof that amount of line and try a weight forward line that is heavier to achieve the same results. Ron

Rod designers assign a line wt rating to a rod based on the line that they feel will work best over the range of conditions that they feel the rod will be used most often. This is very subjective. Most lines are rated based on the weight of the first thirty feet. Extend more line out and you are casting a heavier weight. Cast less line and you are casting less weight and may find it more difficult to load the rod for effortless casting. Many rods are designed to optimally load with 35 to 40 ft of the rated line extended.

The line carries the fly to the target. The larger and or more wind resistant the fly the greater the mass of flyline requiered to effectively carry the fly.

If you are going to be making shorter casts and/or casting larger flies it may be helpful to go up one or two line sizes.

When fishing for bass my casts are usually less than 45 feet including the length of the rod and leader. So I usually upline by one or two line sizes. I regularly use an 8wt line on my 6wt rods, 10wt lines on my 8wt rods and so on.

So your "6 weight" rod performs considerably "better" with an 8 weight line...

THAT PRETTY MUCH MAKES IT AN 8 WEIGHT ROD NOT A 6 WEIGHT

All rods can be cast with a few different line weights, with "modern" fast action rods usually handling heavier-than-rated lines very well. Slower action rods seemingly don't respond quite as well to overlining in my opinion.

So now you have an 8 weight rod with a 6 weight sticker on it, and you can still drop to a 6 weight line if you want a bit more delicacy or if you know you're going to be using just smaller flies.

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Originally Posted by jszymczyk

So your "6 weight" rod performs considerably "better" with an 8 weight line...

THAT PRETTY MUCH MAKES IT AN 8 WEIGHT ROD NOT A 6 WEIGHT

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One way of looking at it. Another is that it makes a slower 6 weight.

You're right about all rods being able to cast different line weights. As the poster above mentioned, manufacturers make an educated guess about what line weight most people will like the rod at. You're also right that faster rods handle overlining better, but missed that slower rods handle underlining better.

I wish there was a fool proof way to know the exact line weight your rod cast best with without buying various lines to try out unless you can return the other lines without a problem.

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Originally Posted by jszymczyk

...THAT PRETTY MUCH MAKES IT AN 8 WEIGHT ROD NOT A 6 WEIGHT
....

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So ...... you're saying either that Bernard Victor Kreh, better known as Lefty, is either a fool, an idiot, or a liar, or maybe all three ??

If Lefty Kreh is willing to make this his signature line of rods and designate them a certain weight, I think I'll go with him on this, not you, and not write your analysis off as another way of saying it.

Just saying ...

John

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Originally Posted by NewTyer 1

I wish there was a fool proof way to know the exact line weight your rod cast best with without buying various lines to try out unless you can return the other lines without a problem.

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A rod will cast the rated line, usually in a weight forward taper, best. At least in the opinion of the rod designer(s). Of course everyone is different so this is a subjective evaluation. Even then, for any given anglers, different lines may work better for that angler with the same rod under different fishing parameters (distance, wind, fly size, etc.) Unfortunately there is no objective way to determine which line will work best on a rod. This is why you will often read many opinions on what line best matches a rod or see someone state something like "Bumble Bee Rod Company's 9ft 6wt Stinger model is really a 7wt." You just have to try different lines. Over time, as an angler's skills develop, their line preference for a rod may even change!


With multiple rods in line weights 2 through 13, and fishing under many different types of waters and conditions over the years, I now have more than 75 fly lines in my collection. So I am able to try many different lines on rods. Since most anglers do not have this many lines, I also loan lines to other local anglers to try out and I sometimes swap lines with other anglers for a few hours or a day. Other local anglers, clubs, or fly shops may be a source of lines to try out.

For the most part, I find that most rods seem to work well over a wide range of conditions with a WF line matching the rod's rating, though I may prefer a different line, and I may go up a size or two or down a size if doing so will make using that rod more enjoyable for what I am doing. But I always test rods to start with the rated line.

In the case of the 6wt rod and bass bugs, that rod probably was not designed with bass bugging in mind. Think trout and panfish and smaller flies that a 6wt line carries well. So using an 8wt line with the greater mass will help carry those bass bugs and as long as you are not trying to carry 50 or 60 feet of line in the air on a false cast the rod will be just fine and the fishing experience more enjoyable.


In the shop we sell mostly 5 and 6wt rods and matching lines to novices, most of whom are initially targeting panfish, trout, and largemouth bass with nymphs, dries, buggers, and small bluegill poppers and foam bugs. Since largemouth bass is the most popular freshwater fish around here, most who stick with it eventually want to fish larger bass bugs. As much as we would like to sell them a 7wt or 8wt rod, more often than not we sell them just a 7wt or 8wt line after putting such a line on their rod or a similar model and having them cast it so they can try it out.

Tailingloop, let me ask you this. I am in the process of buying or atleast looking for a line for my 9wt SW outfit. I am leaning toward a shooting head. So, I am looking at a running line rated at 11wt and a intermediate shooting head. What # running line would I need to match a 350gr shooting head. This rod will most likely be used for Stripers and Bluefish. I have found a Elite running line @.043 and a 350gr shooting head. Do you think that is to heavy for a 9wt rod. This is the rod I will be using Redbone Hurricane,9'- 9wt-2pc and this is the running line, http://www.ebay.com/itm/120881755333...84.m1423.l2649 and finally the shooting head http://www.ebay.com/itm/150788548034...84.m1423.l2649. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Yes, I understand that you may not know anything about the rod other than it has good backbone.

I'll jump in here, as I've already fired hundreds of casts off with a 350 on a 9 to stripers this year and will be doing so for the next 4 days. The shooting head is 30' , shorter than what is usually the criteria for line weight. It's predicated on being able to limit false casts and shoot the line using a double haul. Without good double haul technique, any shooting head/running/line is going to fail. In a pinch, I've used a 350 on a 6 and up to 12. You adjust linespeed to suit the rod. That shooting line is a bit thick. If you want to have ease in handling the line and aren't trying to shoot 80'+ then it would be OK. If you want to have ease in casting some distance, I'd look into Rio Slickshooter or Froghair shooting line in the .025 to .035 range. One of the integrated lines are usually easier to handle for someone new to saltwater, as the running line is balanced with the head by the company product developers rather than hit or miss. The advantage of a head/line system is, by using a loop to loop connection you can change heads and switch to a faster sinking one , which in my opinion, is usually what is more efficient for stripers. Just be careful in a blitz. If you strip the knots in past your line hand and get bit, the knots rip back out through your fingers and can get bloody:D. Generally bring the the head inside the guides-rollcast the head out of the guides -pick up and backcast-shoot the line on the forward stroke. Coated running lines tend to have less memory than the solid mono lines, and take a little less prep work and care in handling. I hope this helps a little , I've been throwing these rigs for decades at stripes and my forum namesake. There are many ways to skin the cat, good casting technique evens out the field quite a bit.

Charlie

What Charlie said basically.

I use 9wt rods and shooting heads extensively for west coast stripers as well inshore saltwater saltwater fishing. I use either 11wt 30ft shooting heads looped to intermediate shooting lines. Or if using integrated lines that have a head factory mated with the shooting line ( e.g. Teeny, SA Streamer Express and similar) I will use a 350 grain line. Occasionally I will go heavier or lighter.

The general rule of thumb for shooting heads of around 30 ft in length is to go up about 2 line sizes from the rod's rating. So for a 9wt rod that would be an 11wt head or 350 grain integrated line. The reason for uplining by about 2 is that rods in this range are typically load optimally with 40 ft or so of the rated WF line extended. With a shooting head or most integrated head lines you only extend the head and a bit of the shooting line outside the tip for the cast so you don't have that additional mass from the belly and back taper of the extended WF line.

I prefer coated shooting lines, either floating or intermediate of about .030" diameter, most of the time for ease of handling but will sometimes use mono shooting lines for extreme distance or very deep presentations.