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This is not a scientific question about the how-to's and why-for's of the qualities of the UV2 enhanced materials, just a practical question. For those of you who have been tying with them, have you seen any increase in strikes? I need to refill my basic fly boxes and am thinking about using the UV2 enhanced materials.
Thanks,
Joe
You have asked a thorny question and I am not sure how you can get an answer that will actually help you.
Since humans cannot see into the UV spectrums of colors, we cannot see the actual UV color of UV materials on the fly or the naturals. We cannot see the UV reflectivity of the current materials that we use that are not marketed as "UV". Therefore, we have no way to match UV to the natural as we can with the visible spectrum.
We have not way to tell which UV material to use and whether it will make a fly pattern more effective, less effective or have no effect at all. It become a trial and error experiment.
How would you choose which UV material to buy, and what would be the logical reason for that choice? If I said that helped me catch more fish, how would you know that the effect was real? If it was real, how would you know that the effect was not pattern specific and would work on the patterns you would use it on.
The opposite possibility is that someone says it does not help. How would you know that it would increase the effectiveness of the patterns that you would use it on? It might be just the thing your pattern is missing to be a super fly.
I think the best way is to try it yourself.
I think any advantage of UV materials is that they act as attractants, just like the peacock herl and red floss on a Royal Wulff.
All I am going to say is that I have been tying with a lot of UV2 products over the last year and a half. IMHO the answer is yes and it isn't just me...Craig Matthews of Blue Ribbon Flies has been using the UV2 materials in many of his standard patterns since Spirit River first came out with these products and he likes them...this is his 2014 catalog:
http://www.blue-ribbon-flies.com/sho...y/2014_catalog
...and this is a Scud pattern I just completed (along with a bunch of others) that uses UV2:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps80b68a78.jpg
UV2 DEAD ON SCUD (Orange)...
HOOK: Daiichi 1250, #14 -#18
THREAD: Under Abdomen, Veevus 16/0, White - Head Lagartun 74 Denier, Amber
WEIGHT: .010 lead, 8 - 10 wraps
TAIL: UV2 Strung Saddle Fibers, Fl. Orange
ABDOMEN: 50/50 Mix Ice Dub UV Hot Orange - UV2 Scud Shrimp Fl. Orange
UNDER BACK: Orange Flashabou, Hedron
BACK: Stretch Flex, 1/8″, Clear
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9d7fc9c0.jpg
Materials...
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psa8fd2013.jpg
A batch of DEAD ONs...
I don't tie 'em for exercise...:p
PT/TB
I bought a few packages and tyed a few flies but I hve not fished them yet so I can't answer your initial question. Saying that I shined my UV light on them and I was able to determine that what makes the material UV reflective is strands of red, blue and a few other colors in the mix. So IMO you could conceivably make your own by taking a favorite dubbing material and add some strands of florescent threads and accomplish the same thing.
There are basically two types of UV, absorption and reflective and they are going for the reflective.
Planetrout,Quote:
Originally Posted by planettrout
I notice the UV2 product says fluorescent orange on it. So we've had fluorescent products before and fluorescence (UVF) is not reflectance (UVR). Fluorescence we can see since it is an invisible UV photon absorbed and re-emittied as a visible color.
So how do you or I know that it is not fluorescence that attracts the fish since these flies will "glow" a brighter color because UV penetrates further down into the water column where non UV colors are drab.
Furthermore, you can match the UVF emitted color to a natural but you cannot match UV reflectance that we cannot see. That is the UV Reflectance (UVR) conundrum. If they are saying that UVR works based on a product that also UVFs, that is junk science since we already know that UVF attracts fish.
Don't we need someone to say they have fished a ton with nonUV flies and then say they fished a ton with identical flies but with UV product .....then what the result was?
Actually I think hap did just that in a similar thread some time ago. Maybe he will chim in.
Something I've been wondering ...and the materials are listed above....Is the Ice dub UV the same as Spirit River UV2?
They are not the same. Ice dub is strictly synthetic, course material. UV2 dub has what appears to have rabbit in it. It i very easy to dub.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksterman
Thanks but actually I was wondering if the UV2 is equal to UV...some where in the back of my mind I think I read that UV2 is better?????Quote:
Originally Posted by narcodog
I am sitting here with an eight page, proprietary, scientific document, on my desk, from Spirit River which clearly states: "not to be published, copied or transmitted without written permission from Spirit River Inc", that came with this selection of dubbings and other materials:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psfb6583a2.jpg
Now that might make an interesting read for those so inclined to ask... "WHY?"... Frankly, I could give a rat's rear...
I tie flies, I toss them in the water and let these guys be the final arbiter:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps3e239762.jpg
Someone a lot wiser than me once suggested: "If you like the results you are getting, keep doing what you are doing."
PT/TB ;)
Exactly what I was going for. The first flies I need to replace in my box are PTN's and was wondering if buying pheasant tail and peacock herl treated with UV2 would be worth it.Quote:
Don't we need someone to say they have fished a ton with nonUV flies and then say they fished a ton with identical flies but with UV product .....then what the result was?
Joe
planettrout,
i agree completely, loved the post.
If I like the color of the dubbing I use it. UV or not. I have not seen one shred of evidence that UV works at all. UV has not increased my strikes one bit. That being said, there are some purdy colors and I will continue to use it, other synthetics,and natural dubbings.
I have seen some posts where tyers use Photoshop, or another app. to make UV look cool. In the end, the trout will let you know what they want. That being said, if you like the color, do not let it being UV stop you from using it.
I bought 3 packs of uv2 dubbing and 1 glowed under my clear cure light, but 2 didn't - does this mean the one that glowed was fluorescent, not UV? And is there any light that shows up the uv part?
WE can't see the UV.
Any light that makes the 'UV show up' won't do us any good, since we can't see it. Many 'UV' products add some fluorescence so that when exposed to a 'UV light source' people see something, thus thinking that the stuff 'works'. Things can reflect both fluorescence and UV. There is no way for human eyes to tell if something reflects UV light, again, we can't see it.
UV shows up under any light that has UV in it, like outdoor light.
WE have only the manufacturers word that something is UV enhanced. I don't know how they can tell...
Whether it 'works' on the fish or not? No clue. It certainly works on fishermen...
Buddy
Well Buddy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Sanders
Get some and try it...but make certain ya' don't dress the base of the pattern with either white thread, pearl or silver Mylar ...that way, it is possible to say: "This stuff doesn't work!"
PT/TB :D
I have played with UV materials quite a bit and believe they make a difference and I have had a couple experiences that made me believe the differences were huge. Five guys fishing side by side at the outlet of a smallish lake on Kodiak Island... four were fishing a scud pattern tied with UV... one used another that looked the same color, but was not UV.
The UV patterns were being hit on every cast and if a fish was lost on the way in another took the fly before it could be retrieved. I tried the "dead" rod and caught nothing. When the UV pattern was tied on the fish hit like they were the other four scuds...
Not a solo example as there have been many similar events for me the last few years. For some fish and some circumstances I am sold on UV.
There is a great book written by Reed Curry on UV, if you are interested or skeptical in the subject I suggest you read the book. Very scientific with documentation but easy to read. The New Scientific Angler.
Attachment 12529Quote:
Originally Posted by narcodog
I have this book and found it very informative. I had to read it twice though, because what I perceive is still not what a fish perceives.
The author uses digital photography techniques to capture UV images of material and then uses digital techniques to transform the images into something we can see. At least we can understand the UV portions of bugs and materials.
Many natural materials have UV properties, and the clearest example is the fur of actic creatures. Apparently snow reflects UV @85%. So does the fur of polar bear, arctic hare, and arctic fox - even though they are white, they also need to match the UV reflective qualities of their background in order to avoid detection.
As well, several feathers show an enhanced UV pattern, and on a bird covered with feathers there would be an overall UV pattern (my interpretation) ? good for mating. Mayfly wings also show UV patterns by species.
According to the book, the following feathers reflect UV: white, light dun or grizzly cock neck, barred turkey, the lighter glossier portion of a white or gray duck quill (like we use in feather wing slips), white goose biot, white bucktail (duh, no wonder the raised flag is such a good warning to other deer - if they can see it).
A second suggestion in the book is that a fly is particularly successful if it contains both UV reflective material and UV absorbing material (particularly dark brown and black). Thus the fish sees a bug go by that is 'UV bright' (we have no word for this since we can't see UV) and also has parts that are a 'UV black hole' - can you say "Prince's Nymph"? This stands out against the normal watery background much better apparently.
So, historical fly tiers stumbled on the best materials years ago. To get back to the initial thread, just put a gray duck quill wingcase on your PTN or add a few grizzly legs. My $0.02 anyway.
Gonna try this stuff, do I need to tie it with white thread, and a pearl underbody? Not being facetious, just want to do it right. Should I leave the head white also?
"Spirit River recommends always tying in a base of pearl or silver Mylar or white thread to enhance the reflectivity of the patterns."Quote:
Originally Posted by herefishy
http://avidanglerflyfishing.blogspot...uv2-tying.html
The head may be a bead, cone, glass bead or thread color of your choosing...
PT/TB
For years, no make that decades, the scientific community and fly fishers with a scientific bent have tried to figure out a few things as far as trout and the connection to what they see, how they see it, do they see color, do they smell, etc. It's as if these people 'know for a fact' that they can determine any of the above through some test or another. The scientific basis is always - The fish do something as we determine they perceive it. In other words, trout see something the way we say because that's how we believe they see it. So the scientists establish the end result then determine how the trout reaction fits into the desired result. Gee, that almost sounds like 'manmade global warming' theories. But I digress. Decades ago I was given several boxes of hooks that were painted white. The guy told me that helps reflect light better and keeps the color of the body, especially dubbed fur, closer to the original color. I also read numerous times about white and silver mylar for underbodies.
You want an experiment, here's one that you can rest assured will be accurate IF you are very observant: Take 10 flies tied regularly and 10 of the same pattern tied with some uv body material. Go to a bridge that spans some good trout water. Just drop the 20 flies and see which ones are taken by the the trout. I say this is a good test but you have to be able to differentiate the uv from the regular. Not that easy. You may need a friend to observe with another set of eyes. One time on the Hale's Eddy Bridge, it spans the west branch Delaware, I accidentally dropped some flies. They were quickly taken by some trout. Interesting because when you do this the flies have absolutely no drag. Anyway, I was a smoker at the time and flipped a cigarette butt into the same area. It too was quickly taken by the trout. I draw no conclusion from that experience other than, cigarettes can catch trout too!
IMHO - the use of uv materials helps if you have faith in the fly. If you think the uv material does squat or makes no difference, your results will probably confirm your previous opinion.
Things could be worse; we could be fishing for Mantis shrimp. They can see not only UV, but IR and polarized light; Hareline and Wapsi would love it.
Regards,
Scott
Lest we forget, a mirror reflects light and reflects UV light. Therefore any silver reflective tinsel will reflect into the UV range and in fact they also reflect into the infrared range. That is why the "space blankets" have a reflective inner and sometimes outer surface to reflect body heat back to the user or away from the user.
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/s...ce-blanket.htm
So reflective tinsel, silver wire, etc reflects UV.
A prism refracts UV. That is why we get the visible light spectrum that we all know as ROYGBIV (red-orange-yellow-green-blue-indigo-violet). Above the violet is Ultraviolet and below the red is Infrared that also gets refracted but we cannot see. So refractive materials also will split off UV so just a looking a a rotating prism ill look various colors, moving fly with prismatic materials will seem to change into various colors including UV.
If the reflections or refractions occur BELOW the depths that visible light penetrates but UV still does, these reflective and refractive materials will look UV colored. And they will look reflect/refract the IDENTICAL UV SPECTRUM. UV materials have been used in flies from very early on.
The second point about UVR materials is that they cannot create UV. They cannot reflect more UV light than is available. So a material that is highly reflective will reflect more UV that one that is not.
The third point is regardless of how much UV or which spectrum of UV is reflective, how do we know how to dress our flies with this material so that it matches the natural. If anyone can answer that question, I would appreciate it since it is the Rosetta Stone of determining what UV material to use and how to use it. Right now UV materials are used as attractants and not as matching the hatch BUT they are being sold to the public as if they match the hatch.
I have no doubt that in some circumstances UV will catch more fish but let us not fool ourselves into thinking that it is because we are somehow matching the UV reflection of a food item. If they work , they do so by attraction just like the Purple Haze Fly Craze a couple of years ago or a Royal Wulff.