I found a place i can sell flies and just sat down and tied a half a dozen pheasent tail nymphs. It took me 23 minutes almost exactly. What is the ideal time for each fly?
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I found a place i can sell flies and just sat down and tied a half a dozen pheasent tail nymphs. It took me 23 minutes almost exactly. What is the ideal time for each fly?
Cdpaul,
There really is no 'ideal' time.
Obviously, to maximise profits, you want to tie each fly as quickly as possible without any sacrifice in quality.
The real key to true production speed is deliberate and repetitive over time. Tie each fly with the same motions every time. Find a tying rate that you can maintain comfortably over a tying session that lasts for a few hours. Remember to include breaks for the bathroom, getting beverages, etc., before you make any cost per hour decisions.
Many folks make the mistake of tying as fast as they can for a dozen or so flies, then think they can tie that way all the time.
Good Luck!
Buddy
Ah, a man that wants to stay poor forever. Commercial tying is a good way to never get to go fishing. When you turn your hobby into a job it usually is no longer fun. However, I wish you well with your endeavor.
The first thing you need to do if you have not done it already is to get a federal Employer Identification Number ( EIN). You will need this to pay the federal excise tax on the flies you sell. You will need a state business license and perhaps a local license. There could be more requirements in your state but these are the big ones.
I don't tie PT nymphs but your count seems a bit on the slow side. A way to tell where you need to be is to take 60% of the retail price your fly shop charges for the fly you are tying. That will way you an idea of what you will get paid for your flies. Then figure how many you have to tie to come up with enough for a profit after paying for material, overhead such as lights, heat, travel expense to deliver flies or shipping if you ship, and the wage you would need to earn.
Don't try to tie every pattern in the fly shop. Pick a few flies you like to tie and are good at and stick with them. Local patterns that are not available through the large commercial sources are a good bet.
Good luck with your venture.
fishbum
Alright thanks. I am a sophmore in highschool and we are requiered to get a work permit if we get a job, does anyone have a clue if this applies to fly tying. I figured that if i could tie during the late fall, winter and early spring when i dont do any fishing besides a few times out on the ice. Where do i go to get the EIN and buseness licenses. I figured it would be a good way to save some money for college expenses.
I have a meeting tomorrow morning with a guy from the Old Ausable fly shop in grayling.
Renowned Fly Tyers Al and Gretchen Beatty (and members here if I'm not mistaken) did an article on this in the spring 2007 Fly Tyer magazine on commercial tying. Try to find that article or else email them (albeatty2@aol.com) and see if they will send you an electronic copy.
As a possibly better way to get started take a look at the "fly market" on the J. Stockard site as a means of selling some flies. www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/category/31000
My ffirst inclinations (and my experience) is to agree witn fishbum, but upon reading your reply, I can tell you that I had a friend who was a very successful commercial tyer from the age of 13-17. He tied while watching television!
Good luck!
I just got done setting up with the guy and i am tying a sulfer emerger, size 16. He said for this pattern i get 11 dollars a dozen. He is selling me all of the hooks, thread and other materials at cost.
Having done more than several stints as a commercial tyer I can assure you it will not make you rich...
Start by preparing materials for at least a dozen flies at once... I would often do lots of 50. You want every piece of all materials to be as exactly alike as possible.
Count thread wraps and minimize their number as much as possible. Not only will the flies hold up better without excess thread, but they will all look more uniform.
Try to develop a rhythm with each material as it is tied in, again so everything is exactly the same...
Do not try to compete for speed until you have tied a LOT of the same fly. PT nymphs must be tied far faster than 4 minutes each to be worthwhile. Depending on the exact pattern a serious commercial tyer will do them well under a minute each.
It is impossible to compete with Third World sweat shops, so stick to big local complicated flies for maximum return on your efforts....
art
I tye commercially (locally)...
Ive tied for Feather-Craft.. Even done a little work for The Fly Shop..
Now I have my own fly into production (with Rainy's) with more coming soon...
I started off do doing a few flies here and there for the local shops. This would help you make a little extra cash for College ...
But heres the thing...
1st.. get to know your local shop owner..
2nd.. know the bugs he will be wanting you to tye..
3rd.. Try you best to get him to carry "your" flies.... (something he cannot get at the big dealers)
4th... Dont fall back in school.... make that 1st ... Tying is a fast pace to keep up with demand..
Finally.. after a butt load of tying... drop the bomb on the shop your buying from about a discount for his tier....
for example... everything that come from Umpqua or Wapsi to the fly shops gets doubled to cover the shops overhead...
so a 10-20% discount helps .. it may seem like just a few buck here and there but over time it adds up...
last and finally note.. My biggest mistake..
to keep your cost as low as possible... keep track of your material..
find out what you need to use and combine what you can.
Leonard
There is no reason for a tyer to pay more than cost when selling to that shop... I would not consider tying for a shop trying to make a buck off my work at multiple levels...
art
Guys,
If you decide to tie flies to make money from them, why in the world would you buy your materials from a retailer, even at a 'discount'???
Get a resale license (not expensive and required in most states if you want to sell stuff). Buy your hooks and materials WHOLESALE from the manufacturer or distributer (if you can find this BB, you can probably navigate our way around the 'net-spend a couple of hours on SOURCING your materials).
The difference in hooks alone will save you bunches, and bulk materials (dubbings, yarns, chenilles, beads, etc.) are much less than 50% of 'retail'. Your local fly shop pays more for EVERYTHING he sells because he needs it packaged and labeled in nice little portions for the personal tyer. The packaging alone can double the price to him over what the stuff in the bags actually 'costs'. Even if he sells it to you for what he paid for it, you are still overpaying for it.
Sourcing is probably the most significant factor in profit margin for ANY small business.
It's not just about tyng the flies. Doesn't do you any good if you can't make any money from it. The more profit you make, the better, right?
Buddy
Correct me if I wrong, but a "commercial tyer" and "tying for a living" are two totally different things. The way I see it a "commercial tyer" just ties wholesale for a retailer. I've yet to see anyone say they are or did tie flies commercially for a living. Seriously, what is a REALISTIC amount of flies the average commercial (non-Asian sweat shop) would be expected to tie in an 8 hour day. And can one sustain that 5 days a week for 12 months? Now take out 10 federal holidays, 10 days for vacation, maybe 5 sick days. That's 25 paid days off that are common for many jobs. Full time jobs usually get health, vision and dental insurance and you still have to pay a portion of the premiums. Most full time jobs also get term life insurance for at least your annual salary.
I just don't see anyone being able to tie enough flies in a typical 2080 hour work year to make enough to live on without any other income. Now, a part time job tying for the local fly shop for someone retired drawing a pension or retirement I can see. For a college kid trying to make money for college? Seems to me to have enough time to put toward college in the first place one would pursue the highest paying job per hour.
I could be wrong, but can even an accomplished tyer tie enough to make a profit that really exceeds minimum wage? and makes enough to be worth the hassle getting vendor licenses and filing and paying State and Federal tax commercial tax returns?
Like it or not there's a reason many of the products we buy are produced overseas.
As a tier, you are a sub contractor=no health or life insurance. In his younger days, my friend tied 48-50k flies per year. At $1+/- each, well exceeds minimum wage. Obviously there is a good deal of commitment involved.
I've tied Commercially and played Hunting / Fishing Guide in the old days...it's was fun for awhile..BUT, it will change your hobby into a job..so I ended it.
What I did then was tie "only my speciality flies, which were Tandem Streamers" so I got my jollys and the Fly Shop got a speciality fly they really couldn't get anywheres else. Good trade off..something you might want to give some thought to.
BUT...keep the passion for flyfishing and flytying.. it could very well be your life long hobby.
There is no time limit to quality but there is if you want to tie & make "some money" afraid 6 in 23mins is not going to enhance your bank balance too much. What with cost of materials, fly tying time you will not make enough to survive never mind maintain a standard of living. If you are doing it for "pin Money" fine but commercially I would say no.Quote:
Ah, a man that wants to stay poor forever
Way I see it there are far too many flies from abroad especially Kenya & the far east. They in the main whilst not "great" tyings will more than suffice for fishing & at a price you or I can not compete with. Only way I see to "make a few bob" (dollars) is to specialise in something that is not readily available from the regular suppliers. One offs, local patterns for local fly shops. that sort of thing. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Tight Lines
I tied full time for 5 years. One thing to remember...
You only get paid for actually tying a fly and not the following.
1. Sales calls either in person or on the phone
2. Purchasing tasks. Ordering and the odd last minute trip down to local fly shop to finish an order.
3. Doing the extra taxes ei. Schedule C. Tax audits.
4. Janitorial work
5. Debt collection
6. Customer returns
5. Shipping tasks
6. Bad flies while "on the job training" a new pattern
Figure on making a little more than minimum wage after taking in account all of your time
Good luck, have fun with it, and you will be able to tie anything after 6 months!
Boyscout
Here is what you are looking at..
this is what I did in 2 weeks time in Dec... ( for my Local shop)..
2 doz scuds in size.. 12/14/16/18
in 21 different colors... @ $9.25 (weighted)
15 doz Sj Worms @7.50 a doz
.....
My speciality flies:
8 doz hibernator @ $15.50 a doz
10 Doz Jigs @ 20.00 a doz
........
Now ... do I have time well invested? *** Yes***
Well winter hits here guiding is slow.. Trying to find a part-time job it a summer town is impossible..
so.. yes.. this did "Help" pay a few bills.. and put some food on the table.. Plus Christmas shopping.
Right now Im getting ready for the new year/new season.. so Im busting butt to finish a new order on top of tying for my guide service .. and tying up to sell "my night flies" to the people I guide for who want to give it a go by themselves
so Im filling up my 10 boxes (plus doing back-up)... catching up on back orders.. trying to get up 4 doz ahead.. and trying to get the local shop full..
my order for Jan..
5 colors: 4 doz in each size... 12/14/16/18 weighted
4 doz: My Roo Bugs
4 doz : "Shop" bugs" in size 12/14/16/18 weighted.. and 4 dozen each size unweighted..
Now by Feb... Im going be burnt out.. unless I get some surprize order.. I probably wont tye anything until June/July to get ready for the fall.
I am a commercial tyer. I seldom make any money at it though, because the market is flooded with Chinese imported flies that the shops sell for .75 cent to $1.00 a piece. I can't tie any that cheap and make money.
Now, I just tie custom and specialty patterns to order for several local fly shops, and fishermen. I make a little money that way, and they get flies that aren't available locally.
Gig,
You have just stated a truism that everyone should realize, "If all you have to offer is cheap labor, there is someone in the world who will probably be willing to do it cheaper." You have to have sometime else to offer the customer.
Yeah. China knocks out several million Adams, Woolly Buggers, Clousers, and stock patterns, most likely tied by children in sweat shops, and they sell them over here for next to nothing. There is no way a tier here can compete on that level. And IMO most anglers that don't tie, don't even realize the difference in quality between a mass Chinese-tied Pheasant-Tail Nymph, or an American-tied one. They probably think they are just going to lose it somewhere anyway, long before it wears out, so why pay more than you have to?
On a personal note, I don't think I have ever bought a fly in my life. I learned to tie long before I ever touched a fly rod. I can't imagine fly fishing, without tying my own flies.
Just tell me they are taking #24 and I head right to the flyshop!
If I have to fish a #24 to catch a fish I am heading straight to the local bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcreek
fishbum
Commercial tying takes a special individual and you will supplement your income, but few are successful at making it a career. First decide what you will be tying" Streamers, Dry Flies, Wet Flies, Realistic Flies, Saltwater Flies, Bass Flies, Atlantic Salmon Flies, etc... Do your homework and visit all of the shops in your State, maybe even a few States. Carry a small notebook and write down the names of the local favorites. Don't forget to write down the prices too! Don't tip your hand too early. I would not recommend approaching the owner or Shop Manager on your first visit, remember...you are just doing your homework.
The next step is to figure your cost. Hooks, furs, feathers, head cement, floss, thread, etc... Now tie a fly and make sure to go slow enough that you are using plenty of cement and applying the correct pressure to the materials. Nobody will buy your flies if they cannot reuse them over and over again. How much do you need to make hourly? Now figure your cost ( all materials and time ) your profit has not been detirmined yet, and I bet you are already at a price that is higher than the shop was selling them for. Now how many flies do you have to tie in one hour to meet that wage? Can you do that well? Still want to be a commercial tyer?
Perhaps the hourly wage is not important? If you just want to tie flies and make some money doing that, I suggest you offer your flies on consignment to the shops. When they sell, you get paid. Before you contact the shops, make sure that you have 2 dozen of each fly for each shop. Never send them anything but the very best and they will ask for more. If you are asked to tie something that you have not tied before, request a sample of what they expect. That way you can match color and style.
Have fun doing what you like. If it becomes a job...then it's time to slow down or stop and go fly fishing.
What Dave said is great.... I tie what I call semi-production or semi-commercial. I tie for 7 or 8 different shops and I tie all sorts of different things from dries to streamers to softies to bass flies.... all across the board really. Most of my flies are traded for shop credit and that also comes with a super steep discount on retail pricing. I'm not doing it to make a living I'm doing it to help perpetuate my habit to untold levels of obsession...... (not healthy). It's tough to even try to make money at this, the only time I get "paid" for tying is when it's a special order from an individual, then often times I broker that through the shops as well since I never try to bite the hand that feeds me. And to boot I have not spent more than a couple hundred bucks on tying materials in the last year or more and my collection of tying materials and stuff has nearly tripled (the wife is about to give me a whole room in the house so I don't have to use a desk in one and a closet in another and then part of a room in the basement!!!)
Steve
I think you will find that not many of your flies come from China & certainly not children in sweatshops. For that try Nike & Reebok. Far more likely Kenya & African countries. Whilst they are certainly tied cheaply you have to remember that the income per capita is considerably lower than a more affluent country, so income, any income is most welcome in that country. In Kenya for example there are some UK fly tying companies that employ handicapped people to tie flies one like Fulling Mill make a reasonable job of it. You want quality they you have to pay for it I am afraid. Look around at your labels China makes just about every thing we use & wear, you may not like or agree it but it is a fact of todays life.Quote:
China knocks out several million Adams, Woolly Buggers, Clousers, and stock patterns, most likely tied by children in sweat shops, and they sell them over here for next to nothing
Tight Lines
I know there used to be a lot of flies coming from Thailand as well. Mostly made by women, not children.
During the Industrial Revolution (even in the USA) we learned that most little children couldn't do much for detail work, as their minds strayed, no matter how they were beaten. China, Africa, other parts of Asia are finding this out as well, as they go through their Industrial Revolution. We, in the West, just look on with our Rose Colored Glasses. Not trying to excuse child labor, but kids who labor are there for a reason, just like our ancestors. Our forebears worked as kids for a reason...and it is the same reason kids in other countries work today. I gotta believe that most parents want better for their kids, but life overwhelms that.
For the new commercial tyer...Don't get discouraged worrying about what the shop is paying for their flies or what country they are coming from. If you are making the very best of whatever flies you plan to offer, then you will be in demand. Start with a sample of the very best, either purchase online from a well know tyer, or go to the shows, meet and greet and make your purchase.
Once you cannot tell your flies from their flies...you will be ready to approach the shops. A good fly shop will have a locally tied section, and those flies aren't cheap. That's the market you want to be in...and if the shop doesn't offer locally tied flies? I would encourage them to let you be their first tyer. If they decline your offer? Their loss, now on to the next shop!!!
Hi Group,
We've been watching this thread with interest. We don't want to rain on anyones parade but don't forget the taxes on top of all the other great suggestions (and ideas) that have been discussed. They happen every quarter and include sales tax (if you make retail sales in your state), Federal Excise Tax (Form 720), Social Security/Self Employment Taxes and state & federal income taxes. While we are talking about running a business, don't forget equipemnt and vehicle depreiciation <SP>, writing off part of your house (place of busines), business travel, milege and the list goes on.
If you decided to say the heck with all of that and work-under-the-table be careful, that straight across trade of tied flies for a "new toy" can seem like a good deal until you get caught and end up paying IRS penalties after a tax audit. How do we know this, Al got too big with his under-the-table operation and in 78 learned about tax audits. He also learned more about audits in 81, 82, 84, 87, 94 and 97; once you get on the "list" (whatever that means) you are more prone to an audit (or that's what we think). By the way the 78 and 97 audist are the only ones where he/we had to pay penalties. In 78 he was under-the-table and had to pay back taxes but from that day forward he (and we) have been legit. The 97 audit was for a mistake on end-of-the-year inventory; our point is that once you get on the IRS radar you can expect to be checked. OR maybe other self employed business people also run into the same problem. We would be interested to learn about that from those of you who are self employed on this group.
Some on this group have already discussed insurance so we wont' go there except to say it really gets expensive if you become a totally self employed. Until recently Gretchen worked outside the home to bring home the insurance. In the recent past Al went fishing with 5 other guys in the fly fishing business; all of them were getting their insurance from their wives job.
Please understand we are not trying to tell you to NOT be a commercial tier but understand it is a BUSINESS with responsibilities/expectations just as much as a person who buys, remdodels and sells houses in addition to his/her day job. (by the way, we've been involved in that as well but in today's environment it may not be a very good life-style choice <G>). What ever direction all of you decide to go if you elect to be under-the-table and "just make a few trades," be careful who you brag to about it..... Take care & ...
Tight Lines - Gretchen & Al Beatty
www.btsflyfishing.com
All very true concerns Gretchen, Thank you. I am not sure what the level of income is for a "hobby" vs "Business" so have a conversation with your tax person before you take the plunge. Also know that this is the first year that Uncle Sam is requiring that paypal report your income to the IRS, so even ebay sellers must now register as a business for 2011. Regardless of what you do...keep accurate records. I keep monthly folders for sales, shipping, purchases, etc. ( match receipts with paperwork ), then check and re-check everything.
It could be argued, with no small amount of validity, that what tiers get here, stateside, is tantamount to a sweat shop wage. I think most would be stunned at how well the flies from China are made. Some of the worlds best tiers have their pattern made in China. I buy bugs all the time...sometimes because the guy behind the counter helped me. Most of the time because try as I may, I cannot tie all the patterns I would like to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigmaster
sweat shops?.......
http://www.brooksideflies.com/aboutus.php
If Im not mistaken..Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac
anything under $5000 "In profit" is a hobby..
anything over is a business...
But in the state of Missouri you have up to 3 years to show you profit of over $5000..
so I have to show my profit in fly tying (Over 5000... total profit... minus all cost of materials)... also in guiding...
for either one not to be considered a hobby
That number sounds right. There is a big difference between the taxes you pay for a hobby and the taxes you pay for a business.
Hobby or Business?
Check this link to the horses mouth.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/...169490,00.html
fishbum
Dave,
Actually, the biggest difference between a 'business' and a 'hobby' are related to what you can DEDUCT, not what you PAY.
They'll allow you to 'break even' with a hobby, but not use losses there to offset other income. For a business, you can use losses to offset other income, but only for so long....
The concept is that the start up costs are usually high for any given enterprise, thus losses are expected until that is overcome.
I know of no 'table' or 'rule of thumb' that attaches a dollar amount to whether or not your enterprise is a business or a hobby. What I learned over the years is that if you take in money for anything, you have to report it as income. It's how that amount you take in compares to the expenses you deduct that determines this. Basically, if you make a 'profit' you have to report it and pay taxes on it.
If you want to keep yoiurself out of the clutches of the evil IRS, find a good tax expert and be SURE you know what you are doing before you do it. Yes, you'll have to pay for this advice, but it IS deductable as a necessary business expense ;).
Buddy
Here's an 'example' that I'm familiar with that illustrates the difference between 'business' and 'hobby':
A friend of mine had a well paying job that he'd been doing for many years. He was also a pretty good weekend tournament bass fisherman. Doing that at a high level is VERY expensive. Boat, gas, gear, etc. really add up. But, he does occasionally win some prizes. Thus he has reportable 'income' from his hobby.
He's allowed to 'duduct' the expenses of his 'hobby' up to the point where he offsets his 'earnings' from it. But, since the value of his winning in most years does not exceed his 'expenses', he can't duduct the 'loss' incurred in his hobby from the income he earns in his 'real' job.
If, in an occasional year he actually makes a 'profit' from his hobby (he's won a couple of boats and such), he does have to report it as income and pay applicable taxes on it.
He's not using the money from his 'hobby' to pay his bills or other living expenses. He pays his withholding taxes and Social Securtity, etc. through his 'real' job. He doesn't have to report and/or pay quarterly withholdings on his 'hobby'.
The beauty of this is that he can do this for as long as he wants without having to show business growth or efforts at it.
Would work for a fly tyer? I don't know, you'd need to consult a tax expert to be sure.
Buddy
Exactly..... I pay my excise taxes on rods that I build for people and I report all of those expenses (including my fly tying expenses) but most of them I do not claim as a loss for a business, I simply claim them as income most often time atthe end of the year I am in the "hobby" section but I have had to pay out a couple times. Also do remember that you can use your time as a cost...... if you spent time you have to figure what your time is worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Sanders
Steve