I have been impressed by the Orvis bimini leader tippets which are looped onto a tapered leader that is much stronger and thicker. I am wondering if any of you know how they twisted the loop--is is furled? I would like to make up some of my own and can't figure out how they constructed them.
The twisted loop is a "bimini twist" knot, hence the name of the tippet. This is a standard knot for "big game" fishermen who are trying to catch fish on tippets with a certain class of breaking strength. The bimini twist knot is a 100% knot, so no strength is lost in the knot.
Here is a link to how they are tied:
http://www.leadertec.com/tipsandtech...ts_Bimini.html
Ted
Thanks for the reply Tedshuck. I have no problem tying the bimini knot -- however the loop in the "Orvis" leader looks as if it is furled. I can't figure out how it is done. I hope I can paste a drawing to show you what I am referring to:
http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/prodimg/BIMINITI.gif
I think that furled look is just due to the twist inherent in the bimini knot. The picture you show makes it look like a single loop. I have usually tied a separate surgeon's loop in the doubled line of the bimini. There is always a fair amount of twisting of the line here and I think if you made the bimini loop fairly small, the twisting in the loop would be enhanced.
Ted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishmate
I would say they are "twisted". Furled is both sides twisted the same direction then when put together they furl the other. A shorb loop is needed or they will unravel.
Here is the video on how to make one:
http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-tie...Twist-51026687
i have done it before by spinning one end of the mono, and holding the other end tight. then tie the mimini knot with out losing the twist. you will have to play around till ya get it but it works..
I tried Sandfly's technique last night--the result was far from the Orvis biminin tippet but perhaps I need more practice--a lot more practice! I really like these tippets, esp for large fish using fine tippets as they have inherent shock absorption. I do some night fishing for big 4-6 lb browns using small Elk Hair Caddis patterns and broke off lots of fish before using this type of tippet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishmate
What about a mono furled leader. They have give. That is what I use.
Whether or not the end of the Bimi Twist shown is actually furled cannot be determined from the posted photo. However; it certainly has all of the earmarks of a 'furled two strand rope', which is what a furled leader actually is. Both legs of the left-hand are clearly "twisted" around one another. The little loop appears to be the 'tippet end' loop, with the butt ends 'all wrapped up' in the main part of the knot. Having seen them tied on several occasions, I would have to say that they are started just as one would start a hand-, or board, furled leader, with the tiers knee, or foot, being the tippet post (peg). Hence, the loop at the left hand end of the picture would be the tippet loop, which does NOT require a Shorb Knot(Loop) to keep it from unraveling; this requirement is for the 'butt' end only. Incidentally, one can very easily "furl" yarn, etc., in one's hands to get them to "twist" around one another to form "furled" bodies for various and sundry flies, especially extended body flies.
Can you explain the difference between "twisting" and "furling"?
Maybe this:
http://castflys.net/Documents/Twisted.pdf
Yes! For all practical purposes, there is no difference (they are synonymous). See your Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary and a good Thesaurus. FURL simply means to "...wrap [sic]* or roll close to or around something", as in furling a sail on a boat.. TWISTING is "...to make (unite) by winding [sic]*[emphasis added] as a: to unite by"...twisting strands together...".
* A sail can be wrapped, or wound, ("FURLED"), around the 'beam' to which it is attached.
In "furling" leaders, the strands are first 'twisted' around their own central axis and are then are 'twisted' around one another, which process we refer to as "furling".
Great definition. And by that I agree that the end of the bimini is furled "if" both sides of the loop are twisted and the as you said "furled" together, which appears to ne the case. But also by your definition, there is a difference in Twisting and Furling. Furling is a product of twisting.
I think it is good to differentiate between twisting and furling as we communicate re: furled leaders. To me there is a difference because when we furl we are releasing stored energy created by the twisting process to cause the furling.
If you blow up the Orvis image a little, I think you'll come nearer understanding what I think Fishmate is asking . . . the loops in the Bimini on the Orvis tippets look as if the tippet was 'twisted' before the Bimini was tied:
Attachment 10383
then the Bimini tied with the twisted line . . . the two loops that form the Bimini appear to be twisted together to form a single 'twisted' loop
The only thing that immediately comes to my feeble mind is they tie the Bimini, then twist the loop up like an Offshore Swivel Knot
Attachment 10384
I thought braided leaders were hollow,with a space to trap water in the center, & Furled leaders are solid wrapped tight.
Neil
RE: "Furling is a product of twisting". Yes, and no. I follow your thinking; however, "rope laying" is the perfect example of furling, and ropes are made of from two to many strands; and their making is a 'one-step' process; not two as many leader makers employ (first "twisting", and then "furling"; both of which are simply twisting operations). The significant difference is that in rope making (laying), this is accomplished by twisting both ends simutaneouly and in the same direction. Thus, the strands are both "twisted" and "furled", in your context, at the same time, as opposed to the two-step process conventionally used when we furl our leaders. Thus, there is no difference between "twisting" and "furling" in my response as you state. Incidentally, our leaders are nothing more than a 2-strand rope, albeit they are tapered!
The single-step process used by rope makers, which permits the release of the stored energy simultaneously with the simple twisting requires that the tippet end be twisted in the 'same' direction as the butt end, and at the same time. (Check out the numerous videos on YouTube on rope making.) We can, and some of us do, accomplish the very same thing by utilizing a ball bearing swivel to attach the thread to at the tippet end. The process also require the use of a "top" to keep the two legs separated during most of the process. Also, the butt ends of the legs are attached to the same two hooks throughout the entire process. As the legs are 'twisted, the swivel revolves in the same direction, releasing the stored energy, and resulting in simultaneous "furling", as the term is used by most. This has been thoroughly vetted on FURLEDLEADERS.CO.UK over the past couple of years.
Those of us there who have resolved most of the problems refer to the method employed by most (two legs twisted form different hooks and then switched to a common hook and twisted in the opposite direction to "furl") as the Traditional Method (TM), and the single-step method as the Rope Laying Technique (RLT). By using the RLT, one can get, theoretically at least, a maximum of 33% reduction, instead of the 10% traditionally used. Those of us who have 'shot' for the max have gotten as much as 30% reduction. HOWEVER, said leaders are almost as stiff as the board itself! We are in general agreement that 20-25% reduction yields a much firmer, or tighter, 'furl' and still produces a supple leader.
If you go to the literature on how the early 'furled' leaders were made using a Walton's Engine, you will find that they were made in a single step. The strands were hung from the "Engine" with a tension weight attached to the "tip" end. This weight would freely spin, releasing the 'stored energy' as the strands were being 'twisted', or 'furled' together. Hence, "twisting" and "furling", not only by definition, but also in actual practice, are synonymous.
Because the terminology in current use does infer a distinction between the two, to prevent massive confusion among the furling ranks, it is perhaps best that we do continue to use said terminology.
SMC, you are correct on how they are made. I cannot speak to the Offshore Swivel Knot, as this is the first time I have ever heard the term. The guys I have watched do a Bimini Twist first form a loop of mono around either their knee, or foot, and then begin to twist the two legs to form the terminal loop and create the 'twisted", or "furled" section, at issue in the original post for this particular thread. It is fascinating to watch a "Pro" do one!
Fishn50, you are absolutely correct.
Cheers!
I find the responses to my question fascinating and thank all of you for your interest.
It would appear to me that the Bimini loop ( aka the Bimini twist loop knot) incorporates in its construction both twisting and furling--I will leave it to you to decide which component is most important, but in my current view-- THE BIMINI IS A FURLED KNOT!!!
I am still preoccupied as to how the loop component is built into the tippet. It is a very tight twist or furl and the length is about twice as long as the Bimini component. I do not think it is a cat's paw as in the offshore swivel knot. I am leaning more to it being a tight twist made in the bight and then somehow Orvis ties a Bimini to finish it off.
As to why I don't simply use a furled mono leader--believe it or not I frequently catch eels on a dry at night along with trout. The eels invariably wrap about the leader and an amazing amount of their slime is left on the leader. It is far more difficult to clean a furled leader as I discovered late one afternoon after a night spent fishing. I had replaced the leader during the night, but hadn't cleaned it. I smelled a pong emanating from my fly vest and discovered that it was coming from the furled leader. It took as long to clean this leader as it does to construct a new one.
I can hear what I think are the eels taking flies off the surface-it sounds louder than the browns but I can't really make the distinction. I cast to the sound in hopes of obtaining a good drift--it is too dark for me to actually see the rises. It is very exciting fishing.
Fishmate...
As previously noted; twisting and furling are synonymous. Thus, a Bimini Knot incorporates one or the other(whichever you want to use); NOT both. The Bimini Twist can be made in various sizes; with the initial loop being made under one's hips, or between ones hands. The two strands are first "tisted", or "furled", if you prefer (it is recommended that the "twisted" portion consist of at least 20 turns), and then the excess tag end is tightly wrapped around the "twisted" portion back down to the point where the two legs are parted by one's knees, or hands, and then the tag end is passed through between the legs and tied around one side of the loop. This process is repeated to both tie off the tag end, and to keep the loop open. There is no twist in the bight.
There are numerous excellent posts on how to tie one on the Internet. Perhaps you might check some of them out to clarify things for yourself.
Art Scheck's book "Fly-Fish Better: Practical Advice on Tackle, Methods, and Flies" has an excellent description (with good pictures) of how to tie the Bimini twist. My library has it, maybe yours does too.
http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Fish-Bette...7101015&sr=8-7
And it really doesn't matter in the end. I have made both, even tried my hand at "twisted" leaders which some clame they too are furled. All I can say is they are all different but the Bimini and the twisted were the same steps...but it really doesn't matter till you do it yourself, and even then it really doesn't matter, does it. :D
Nope! Just a matter of semantics. The important thing is that we all understand what the other is talking about.
Any book on knots worth having will have either drawings or photos of a Bimini Twist knot, along with a SBS on how to tie them. Nothing unique about Scheck's book. The can even be 'Googled'.
Cheers!