Not all Kayaks are equal!

I am new to flyfishing but not new to kayaks. If you like to have things spread around and particularly if you want to stand up then a sit on top is for you. If you plan to cover any distance, i.e., more than a couple of miles, then a sit in sea kayak is for you. You need to consider initial stability; the wider the boat the more stable. generally 24" is a stable width. I paddle a 21" boat that is very fast and efficient, but, I wouldn't consider trying to cast anything from it. There are comercial pontoon systems that will make anything stable that can cost up to $300. It is possible to jurry rig a fairly decent pontoon using spare paddle and paddle floats.

Wind and other boats are big problems. Motor boats tend to cruise along w/ bow raised and have a hard time seeing anything in the water. Paddling in groups and waving paddles over head as high as you can is about all you can do. If your upper body resembles that of a gorilla then it is possible to paddle some against a 30 not wind (flag sticking straight out). For us mere mortals 10 to 15 nots is it. Dress for the water temperature not the air temperature; hypothermia is no fun.

Paddle net will review specific boats and gives good info. Also they have used boats.

Get the best paddle you can afford, it makes the whole trip more fun. If you are going on open water seriously consider getting lessons on sea kayaking; there is a lot more to it than you would think.

That is about as succinct a summary as possible. A couple of other factors are weight, floatation, and cost. Weight can become a big issue if you need to load a kayak on top of a car. SOT boats tend to weight substantially more than SINK boats. That extra 10 or 20 pounds might make it impossible or just unpleasant to load a SOT. Kayaks are much less fun if you leave them at home. SOT boats have a trapped bubble of air between the deck and the hull so they will not sink. Touring or sea kayaks have sealed compartments (always in the stern but better ones have at least a second in the bow) – you can tell by the hatches. These compartments in addition to providing dry storage keep the boat afloat even if it is full of water. This is not the case with recreational kayaks. If the worse happens and you fill your rec boat with water it will sink. This not only costs you the boat but every year it costs several folks their lives. It is no surprise that weight and cost are tradeoffs. Inexpensive boats tend to be rotomolded out of fairly soft plastic and are very heavy (they also tend to be indestructible). Thermoform boats are of a harder plastic, substantially lighter and (surprise) cost more. Composite boats of fiberglass, Kevlar, or carbon fiber are the lightest and most expensive – they also tends to be the faster higher performance boats (very few of which are useful for fishing).

David

I really worry about folks that get into boats with no appreciation of what it takes to be safe. What comes to mind was a gentleman that bought a sit on top with a log of freeboard (plastic sides sticking up out of the water) and went paddling with a group that encountered 20 knot winds from left front. If I hadn't been along with a tow line he would of been pinned against a bank waiting for the wind to die down.
Another worry for the sit in kayak is using the paddle float and paddle correctly to get in. I have actually seen som cheaper boats that didn't have shock cord on the deck. I was able to do instructor quals in 8 foot seas and 45 degrees after 2 years of practice.

I'm sure you meant "KNOTS" right?

still haven't got the spell checker to work and it probly wouldn't of caught it anyways.

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Originally Posted by scotthen

Paddle net will review specific boats and gives good info. Also they have used boats.

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I think you mean www.paddling.net the other is a little kinky.

You can make 15 knots? You got me beat. I am happy to maintain anything over 5 knots.

When you are selecting a yak, you also need to consider where you will be using it. A 14-foot yak will be unmanageable on a Class III+ river. You need a short (9-10 foot), maneuverable boat, that will not bend in half if you get trapped between rocks.

Inflatables are a good compromise. My Advanced Elements Convertable handles rivers, fast water, bays, lakes and even swamps equally well, even though it is 15' long, and I can keep up with hard-shell Touring yaks in it easily (with the backbone installed). With the High-Pressure Dropstitch floor in it, I can maneuver in rivers as good as I can in my hard-shell Pursuit, because it gives it a flat bottom.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ableYak003.jpg

It's better to buy more boat than you think you will need, than not have enough. Anyone can get caught by surprise with sudden storms, wind, fast water, etc...

When I went to school 15' ment 15 feet, maybe things have changed. I started kayaking when white water boats were 13;9; I seem to remember this was the official salom length. I have some short boats that spin like a top, my long boat is more useful to when using waves to get places on big rivers; I have been called old school. Since my favorite boat is the 10 foot version of the Lettman Mark 5 I guess that's fair. If I could paddle 15 knots you would have seen me on the Olympics; or swing from the trees.

I think I mis-read scothen's post. Now that I have re-read it, I don't think he was saying he can make 15 knots paddling. I think he was saying that he could paddle against a 15 knot wind...rough, but doable.

My apologies, scothen.

I couldn't possibly risk my life with a inflatable!
21"? Umm aint that a kids toy!:-)

You've obviously never been in a good one. I would put my Convertible, or my Rio up against any hardshell, or canoe made, for general use. Here is a great example. If you hit a rock on a river hard enough to punch a hole in a hardshell, your trip is over. There is no way to patch it in the field. It will require expensive polymer work to be seaworthy again. A good inflatable, under the same conditions, requires a simple patch that can be put on right there, and a little inflation, and you're back on the water again, in less than 30 minutes. Even a bad rip wont sink you completely, because unlike a hardshell, there are multiple compartments, any one of which is capable of keeping you afloat long enough to get home. Entire bladders can be replaced easily, and relatively inexpensively.

I wouldn't trade either of my inflatables for any model of hardshell. I have a Pelican SIT, but I mostly use the inflatables. I had the Pelican first.

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Originally Posted by BigPhish

I couldn't possibly risk my life with a inflatable!
21"? Umm aint that a kids toy!:-)

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Originally Posted by Gigmaster

You've obviously never been in a good one. I would put my Convertible, or my Rio up against any hardshell, or canoe made, for general use. Here is a great example. If you hit a rock on a river hard enough to punch a hole in a hardshell, your trip is over. There is no way to patch it in the field. It will require expensive polymer work to be seaworthy again. A good inflatable, under the same conditions, requires a simple patch that can be put on right there, and a little inflation, and you're back on the water again, in less than 30 minutes. Even a bad rip wont sink you completely, because unlike a hardshell, there are multiple compartments, any one of which is capable of keeping you afloat long enough to get home. Entire bladders can be replaced easily, and relatively inexpensively.

I wouldn't trade either of my inflatables for any model of hardshell. I have a Pelican SIT, but I mostly use the inflatables. I had the Pelican first.

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I'm not going to take anything away from your preference for inflatables, but you're not entirely accurate about the other stuff. Small cracks or holes in a "hard" kayak can be patched in any number of ways in the field -IN AN EMERGENCY- at least enough to get you home. Modern thermoplastic roto-molded kayaks can be easily and inexpensively welded and built up to fix all but major cracks and holes, not to mention the material is remarkably tough and forgiving of impacts. Plastic welding and filling is easy to do at home and can be done by anyone with rudimentary mechanical skills. "Laid up" glass, kevlar, whatever, boats also can be repaired fairly easily and cheaply with fabric and epoxy.

I'm sure there are very good inflatable boats out there, but there are reasons why they are still only small piece of the kayak market.

Point taken. There are advantages and disadvantages to all types. I have both hardshells, and inflatables, and love them all. As far as I am concerned, there are no bad Kayaks.

My point was that there is nothing wrong with a good inflatable kayak. They are just as safe as a hardshell, generally speaking. They are a viable choice.

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Originally Posted by jszymczyk

I'm not going to take anything away from your preference for inflatables, but you're not entirely accurate about the other stuff. Small cracks or holes in a "hard" kayak can be patched in any number of ways in the field -IN AN EMERGENCY- at least enough to get you home. Modern thermoplastic roto-molded kayaks can be easily and inexpensively welded and built up to fix all but major cracks and holes, not to mention the material is remarkably tough and forgiving of impacts. Plastic welding and filling is easy to do at home and can be done by anyone with rudimentary mechanical skills. "Laid up" glass, Kevlar whatever, boats also can be repaired fairly easily and cheaply with fabric and epoxy.

I'm sure there are very good inflatable boats out there, but there are reasons why they are still only small piece of the kayak market.

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This is not a criticism but merely an observation regarding the content of the initial post. Having read the post, I gather you are referring to fishing the open seas. And if this is the case then I am not going to contradict you. On the other hand, if you are paddling/peddling a lake, bay, estuary or a river, then I think a sit on top kayak is far more user friendly than a sit in. I have both types of kayaks and it is my experience that the sit on top, both in terms of comfort and ease of casting a fly rod, then my Hobie wins hands down.

Regards
Jeff

I'd like to have a SOT, but right now, my wife has put her foot down. No more boats for a while. She has a weird way of thinking...like "How many boats can you use?". Of course, any guy can answer that...." As many as you can get....".

I have tried to explain to her that, as much as I love tacos, there are times when I would rather have a burger, or a steak, or spaghetti. Boats are like that. But she totally misconstrued the explanation, preferring to interpret as a comment on women, which couldn't be further from the truth. I explained that I had no desire to chase other women, because women are not that much different from each other (it sounded a lot better when it was in my head....). This only seemed to escalate the situation (ever wish your brain had an 'audition' button, so you could preview what you are about to say before it comes out....?), so I have dropped the SOT thing for now, while I am still married.

Gigmaster, so true and funny too. Careful what you say to the missus, they analyze differently to us rational thinkers.:)

I had to do it. In case anyone is wondering whether these boats are seaworthy, my son, his significant other, my grandaughter, and myself took the Convertable and the Rio out yesterday on Carter's Lake. We had waaaay too much fun. Here's me in the Rio.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps8c336e0f.jpg

Here's the crew in the Advanced Elements Convertable.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...psc4fa0e3b.jpg

We did 7 miles. I am going on a river assault tomorrow on the Coosawattie with the Rio. I will post pictures if I survive the Class III+ fast water. Hopefully, I will bring home some fish as well.

I put my money where my mouth is. I'll put both of these boats up against any hardshell on anything, but over-all speed, and the Convertable is faster than some hardshells. The Rio is as fast as a lot of Playboats, and can handle Class V water just as good. It is self-bailing if you remove the drain plug in the back.

I love my boats. I love where I live....Life is good.......

Hope Gigmaster survived his trip. :eek:

We had a blast. The Coosawatee was great. There was a strainer (two fallen trees completely across the river) that was offset with a stump sticking up from the middle. I had to attack from the fast water on the right side, and slalom left around the stump, and squirt out to the right side back into the middle. It was great. This weekend, I plan to run the Conasauga from the Beaverdale Superette to Norton Bridge, fishing along the way. The Conasauga is one of the most diverse ecosystems in the country, with many species that can be found nowhere else. I will try to post pics.

May 4th, and 5th, I am going to paddle out to an island I know of on Lake Ocoee, camping overnight. This place has catfish as big as Prizm, and more smallmouth bass and walleye than you can shake a stick at. I have some new Puglisi patterns I want to test.

May 14th, I am paddling and fishing the Soddy River (a Tn. River trib...) below Chattanooga.

A word about the pictures.....we had PFDs, but we had to take them off to reach around behind us to get the cameras. Actually, you can see one of the PFDs sticking up in the second pic. My grandaughter never had hers off, and we put ours back on right after taking the pictures. You should always have a PFD on unless you are stationary and diving.

zaparciao lekach

Some more points in the SOT vs. Sit In discussion:

You will stay much dryer in a SI than on a SOT. I took this into consideration when I got mine. I like to get out in the early spring and late fall, and while I live in KY where it does not get real cold, I have become somewhat of a wuss in my old age.

A paddler in a SI presents much less "sail area" to a steady wind than one on a SOT, as the second sits much higher than the SI. Now for flyfishing this becomes a bit of a challenge as the extra height of the SOT would be an advantage in casting.

I was going to get a SOT, but in all my river runs, I noticed that people in the SOTs were the ones having most of the problems, like getting trapped, capsizing, etc.... I always thought SOTs were more stable than SIKs, but that must not be the case. They really don't seem to maneuver very well, either. I would not even think of running a river in an SOT, now. They are probably OK an a calm lake or pond, but that's about as far as I would take them. Even in the ocean in seemingly calm bays, seas can get higher and rougher without warning.

If you get an SOT, make sure you get lots of water-proof clothing. You'll need it.