Mountan stream vs Main Stream Tenkara

Paul Gaskell at Discover Tenkra recently made a blog post about the different Tenkara techniques he witnessed in Japan. Contrasting the different techniques used between the two types of streams, the different approaches used by Dr. Ishigaki or Sakakibara Masami to main stream fishing, and addressing the misconceptions or limited view we have had about other aspects of Tenkara as practiced in Japan. It's worth reading.

http://www.discovertenkara.co.uk/hon...outside-japan/

When I think of Main Stream, Honryu (本流) tenkara fishing I picture something similar to what is in this 4:39 minute video. Posted June 7, 2014. Tone? (likely an odd translation of the name) River Main Stream Tenkara. Fishing a wider river using a 3.9m to 4.5m rod is my own experience with main stream fishing, fishing rivers that were not much different from the section of the Tone River he is fishing in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15GP4ZP6pjQ

I might note that the fisherman is identified as Kobayashi-san. (小林さん). And the rod he is fishing with is a Daiwa Rinfu (凛風SR),4.5m rod with the grip wrapped with tennis tape. The Rinfu is classified by Daiwa as a Keiryu rod, under the sub group of a Hae (ハエ竿). Or a universal or versatile rod. Hae fish (ハエ魚) are generally just called Fly fish. Indeed ハエ will translate into English as Fly. Google ハエ and you get pictures of house flies. Google ハエ魚 ( Hae Fish) and you get pictures of the species of fish it refers to. The Hae fish are grouped under what are called Haya ( ハヤ). Any number of small fish species. Here they would probably be something like Chubs or Shiners. Dace also fall under this group. I see a lot of different models of Hae/Haya rods ハエ竿 converted into Tenkara rods on Japanese Tenkara websites.

I have recently became aware that currently the Daiwa Rinfu rods are quite popular as Tenkara rods. I don't know what a better translation of the Rinfu (凛風) name would be. The second part of the name (風) is Kaze or Wind. John Vetterli mentions seeing more Rinfu rods than any other Keriryu rod being used for Tenkara during his recent visit to Japan. Paul Gaskell mentions meeting a young guy named Saigo-san, aka Ajari-kun, who is regarded as a very skillful Tenkara fisherman. He also uses a Rinfu rod with a foam grip added. Look at Ajari's blog and more often than not he list his "tenkara tool of the day" as the Rinfu HC 4.5 rod. Reading the interview of Go Ishi posted last July on Tenkara Talk and the Rinfu 45 rod is one of 3 rods he uses. The other two being an Oni rod and a Nissin Zero Sum rod.

A lower cost and slightly heavier similar rod is the 4.5m Daiwa Sagiri. 早霧ＭＣ（さぎり. Interestingly 早霧 is phonetically Haya kiri. Seeming to refer to Haya fish. But the second part of the name (kiri) will translate as Fog or Mist. As will the giri part of Sagiri. Kind of difficult to figure out an accurate English translation. However, these models of rods are a mote point here as neither rod is sold here and I was told, by a guy in Japan, that the Rinfu rods are sold out until next spring. Not that I was looking to buy one. I was ordering something else and just asked his opinion about them.

Anyway, I found a couple of other videos of Honryu, Main Stream Tenkara fishing that show quite a different concept of Tenkara from what I have seen before. Both videos are of a guy named Kazunori Kobayashi , ( 小林和則氏 ). I think he is a different Kobayashi from the first video. K. Kobayashi is a field tester for Gamakatsu. He fishes with a Gamakatsu Multi-flex Tenkara rod, 4.5 - 5m rod. Using tapered lines from 7m to 12m in length + 1 -> 2m tippet. His videos are different from other tenkara videos I have seen. He isn't dressed in normal outdoor wear, plus wearing waders and a fishing vest. He is dressed more like fishermen in competition fishing. So a little different perspective on Tenkara.

This first video was posted Dec 24, 2103. It is a 3:47 trailer for a Tenkara DVD of his. I am not sure of an accurate translation of the title. Something like Top Scale Main Stream Tenkara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMrY5OHqoY4

This second video of him was posted July 9, 2014. It is much longer at 12:24. The title is :
A "Honryu" Tenkara Specialist- Kobayashi Kazunori of Tonegawa 利根川 小林和則氏の本流テンカラ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONnV8_v1yAU

The water in this part of this same River ( all 3 videos were filmed on the same river) is much to fast for my taste to wade. I prefer to not be drowned while fishing. And about my limit for line length is 5m ( 16.4 ft)

What do you think? Is this outside your expected concept of Main Stream Tenkara fishing?

fwiw,
David

The Rinfu is a truly fabulous rod, although my impression was that it had been discontinued. I bought one 3.5m and one 4.5m to evaluate but when I decided do import them I was told they were no longer available from Daiwa (may have been a misunderstanding - I took it to mean discontinued but it is possible they were just sold out. I will try to clarify that. If they will be available in the spring I will definitely have them in stock!) As near as I can tell, "rinfu" doesn't have an easy translation into English, coming out something like "cold breeze that makes you sit up and take notice." I would not have categorized the Rinfu or Sagiri as keiryu rods but as seiryu rods, or hae rods. In this usage, hae does not mean fly and they are not called fly rods. That is a google mistranslation. Hae is the type of fish, so they are rods for catching that type of fish (called pale chub in English). (The confusion over hae=fish and hae=fly is very similar to the English bow=prow of a ship, bow=knotted ribbon in a girl's hair, bow=weapon used with arrows, bow=bending over at the waist.) Also, seiryu rods and tenkara rods are subsets of keiryu, so the Rinfu would have been listed under the category of keiryu (stream fishing) as opposed to ocean fishing, carp fishing, etc.

My personal reaction to the blog post was wondering what the big deal was. People here in the US who have been fishing the Madison in MT, Arkansas in CO, the Green in UT or any larger rivers have been using those techniques naturally for as long as they've had rods available. I think that is the difference between believing that you must look to Japan for all knowledge about tenkara on the one hand (with the admonition that if the masters don't do it, it somehow isn't proper tenkara), and just taking the rods and going fishing, learning as you go on the other. When the first learns that the masters in fact do it that way it is a revelation. When the latter learns they do it that way, it is "yeah, I thought so."

The Rinfu SR (high-contrast) is still listed on the Diawa website at:
http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item/...puu/index.html

While the URL lists it under keiryu rods the Mountain Stream Rod webpage lists it under Fly Rod & Other Universal (Japanese: ハエ・万能竿・その他). A Rinfu 45SR only weighs in at 57 grams! No wonder they like it so well.

BTW - listed next under that section is the Hayakiri MC which in parenthesis they call Sagiri. Did they just change the name of the rod? People say it isn't available but people have been selling the Sagiri on eBay for the last year or so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LynnMCF

The Rinfu SR (high-contrast) is still listed on the Diawa website at:
http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item/...puu/index.html

While the URL lists it under keiryu rods the Mountain Stream Rod webpage lists it under Fly Rod & Other Universal (Japanese: ハエ・万能竿・その他).

---

People still run into a problem with Google transations. IT IS NOT A FLY ROD. IT IS HAE ROD, AS IS IN ROD FOR CATCHING HAE - which is a type of fish. Google translates hae (ハエ) as "fly" but in this context it doesn't mean fly. It means "pale chub." It is analogous to us saying a rod is a "trout rod." The Rinfu is a Pale Chub rod.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LynnMCF

BTW - listed next under that section is the Hayakiri MC which in parenthesis they call Sagiri. Did they just change the name of the rod? People say it isn't available but people have been selling the Sagiri on eBay for the last year or so.

---

For most, if not all, Japanese characters there are two ways to pronounce the character. The explanation in the parenthesis tells you the correct pronunciation. The correct pronunciation is the Sagiri not the Hyakiri (which is the wrong pronunciation). Daiwa has discontinued the rod, and it is no longer available from Daiwa. A few shops here and there in Japan still had unsold rods in stock, which people bought and offered on eBay. Daiwa continues to list it in the catalog so the shops that still have them don't have to discount them as old, discontinued merchandise.

You can buy a Model T on eBay right now. Your neighborhood Ford dealer would tell you it isn't available if you walked in and wanted to buy one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

The Rinfu is a truly fabulous rod, although my impression was that it had been discontinued. ...I was told they were no longer available from Daiwa (may have been a misunderstanding - I took it to mean discontinued but it is possible they were just sold out. I will try to clarify that. If they will be available in the spring I will definitely have them in stock!).....

---

Chris, It was Keiichi Okushi at Tenkara -Ya that told me the Rinfu rods were sold out until spring. And as Lynn pointed out they are still on the Daiwa website.While the Sagiri two way rods are not. But Sagiri single length rods are on the Daiwa website. It was the Sagari 45 rod that Keiichi-san suggested as equivalent to the Rinfu, though it is a little heavier and is a lower cost rod.

凛風SR (Rinfū SR)
http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item/...puu/index.html

早霧ＭＣ（さぎり）(Haya kiri MC (sa giri))
http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item/...iri/index.html

If the Rinfū rods are available in the spring it might be interesting to see what people do with them. Especially people who saw them being used in Japan. In general it seems people here use the rods just as they come. But in Japan they always seem to add tennis tape or a foam grip to them or first wrap the grip section with line to improve the balance of the rod. Which I image will shorten the center of gravity lenght an inch or 2. Here are two webpages showing the box they come in and how they added a foam grip:

Packaging:
http://yowzo2.naturum.ne.jp/d2013-01-05.html

Adding the foam grip:
http://yowzo2.naturum.ne.jp/e1562040.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

.... I would not have categorized the Rinfu or Sagiri as keiryu rods but as seiryu rods, or hae rods. In this usage, hae does not mean fly and they are not called fly rods. That is a google mistranslation. Hae is the type of fish, so they are rods for catching that type of fish (called pale chub in English). (The confusion over hae=fish and hae=fly is very similar to the English bow=prow of a ship, bow=knotted ribbon in a girl's hair, bow=weapon used with arrows, bow=bending over at the waist.) Also, seiryu rods and tenkara rods are subsets of keiryu, so the Rinfu would have been listed under the category of keiryu (stream fishing) as opposed to ocean fishing, carp fishing, etc.

---

In wanting to call them Seiryū (清流) rods you are battling Daiwa's own classification. Again, as Lynn posted, when you go to the Rod index page they link , I think, 18 classes of rods and Seiryū is not among them. It is the link to the Keiryū (渓流) rods that takes you to the page with the Rinfū, Sagiri and Tenkara rods.

Rod index page:
http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item3/rod/index.html

Keiryu Index page, where they list 5 classes of rods;Mountain stream/ headwaters, Main Stream, Zero Fishing, Tenkara and the last group with Rinfū and Sagiri rods grouped under the bottom group under the ハエ・万能竿・その他 (Hae/fly - Universal/Versatile Rod - Others) label.

http://all.daiwa21.com/fishing/item3...ryu/index.html

I will have to disagree with you a little about the ハエ竿 translation. But it's not worth splitting hairs to much. It is basically a battle of homonyms. ハエ竿 will translate as Fly Rod. When I first found the term I assumed it was just one of many ways to spell Fly - Rod. The Japanese often seem to have 3 or more ways to write the same thing. In this case it was Eddie Yamakawa who straightened me out about it, I think it was in a post on Anthony Naples old blog.

Eddie explained that Hae was the name for a common house fly and that if a Japanese person who does not fish freshwater streams - if they saw the term ハエ竿 they would think House Fly rod. And that it is only people who fish fresh water streams who would also be aware that ハエ ( hae) also refers to a type of fish. Thus ハエ is the word for a house fly and also for a type of fish. So writing in English Eddie said these types of small fresh water fish are called Flies. ハエ, hae, being like your example of bow or other homonyms, words with the same spelling but different meanings.

If you look up ハヤ ( Haya) on Wikipedia you will find it is a class of fish. Wherein it states that they are also referred to by 2 generic names. ハエ ( Hae) or Flies, and ハヨ(Hayo or Hajo). Thus ends the beating of the dead horse. :shock:

Looking around Japanese web sites I frequently see rods with ハエ printed on them. And less frequently rods with ハヤ written on them. I see both types being modified into Tenkara rods. Google ハエ竿・テンカラ竿を自作 ( = Hae Rod - Tenkara Rod Homebrew/self made) and you will probably find a few web pages showing how they go about it. Usually adding some type of grip but sometimes discarding a section to make a shorter rod.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

...My personal reaction to the blog post was wondering what the big deal was. People here in the US who have been fishing the Madison in MT, Arkansas in CO, the Green in UT or any larger rivers have been using those techniques naturally for as long as they've had rods available. I think that is the difference between believing that you must look to Japan for all knowledge about tenkara on the one hand (with the admonition that if the masters don't do it, it somehow isn't proper tenkara), and just taking the rods and going fishing, learning as you go on the other. When the first learns that the masters in fact do it that way it is a revelation. When the latter learns they do it that way, it is "yeah, I thought so."

---

I guess I had a little different reaction. I thought their conclusion was that there are a lot of misconceptions that the tenkara masters mostly used techniques within a narrow range but they found that while the basic fundamentals are narrow, after being well grounded in the basics, the techniques used were quite diverse. Just as I thought the main stream style of the Gamakatsu field tester was a lot different from what the DT guys described. I think of it like my experiences going to an art museums. You see the famous painting of Van Gogh or Dali, kind of weird stuff, but then you see their sketch books and see they were also very skilled at making life like sketches using proper proportions of their subjects. Know the fundamentals and be skilled at them before becoming more creative. But as you stated it's just fishing.

;)
D

The Sagiri rods on the website are all 2-way rods. The column on the Sagira page that is between the harris column and the % carbon column shows the 2 lengths. The Sagiri 39 can be fished at 340 or 390cm. The Sagiri is indeed similar to but heavier than the Rinfu.

I think you are misinterpreting what Eddie said about hae/fly. I think he was just explaining why the fish was incorrectly called fly in English, but I truly don't think he meant that they SHOULD be called flies. In English - via Google - it comes out as fly but that doesn't make it right. It is because Google doesn't use the right translation in this context. As you well know, Google translation of Japanese to English is horrible. I certainly would not hold up Google's translation as a reason the fish should be called flies or that hae rods should be called fly rods.

I call the Rinfu and Sagiri seiryu rods because Nissin and Gamakatsu refer to their rods intended for hae fishing as seiryu rods. Daiwa uses a catch-all category, but that category gets caught up with the hae/fly mistranslation which I had wanted to avoid because it always leads to substantial confusion.

I certainly agree with the DT conclusion that there are misconceptions, but I firmly believe that the root of the misconceptions is that the western world has largely relied on one person's interpretation of what one master has said - with the strong undertone that it was gospel. The more we hear reports from other people who have gone to Japan and talked to other tenkara anglers - masters and just plain fishermen, the more we (and DT) realize that the neat little boxes we and they drew around tenkara were much, much too limiting. And even with respect to the strong admonition that one must be well grounded in the basics, I suspect that (and the basics they refer to) is still largely filtered through one particular Japanese angler. I think it is still an attempt to draw neat little boxes which in time will be shown to be too limiting. There are certainly other very accomplished anglers - some called master, some not - from and about whom we have heard next to nothing. Whether the information comes from the US or the UK it still mostly comes from Dr. Ishigaki. And it still carries an undertone of this is the right way to approach tenkara. I don't think it's wrong, I just think it is incomplete and is creating a new set of misconceptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

The Sagiri rods on the website are all 2-way rods. The column on the Sagira page that is between the harris column and the % carbon column shows the 2 lengths. The Sagiri 39 can be fished at 340 or 390cm. The Sagiri is indeed similar to but heavier than the Rinfu.
.

---

Yes. My fault. My mind kept puzzling why the name was the same as on your website but, I was seeing only single length rods on the Daiwa site. I was in to much of a rush and failed to look to the right side of the table and see the double length column. Sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

..I think you are misinterpreting what Eddie said about hae/fly. I think he was just explaining why the fish was incorrectly called fly in English, but I truly don't think he meant that they SHOULD be called flies. .

---

Perhaps, the old blog is gone and his explanation wording can't be checked. I assumed he was saying the Japanese word for the house pest and for the species of fish sounded or was written the same way in Japanese.

But it is unimportant once you understand that ハエ竿 refers to a rod designed to target a species of fish. And it is not sold as a Kebari Rod, for lack of a better term, to avoid saying Fly rod.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

...I certainly agree with the DT conclusion that there are misconceptions...... the neat little boxes we and they drew around tenkara were much, much too limiting. ..... I don't think it's wrong, I just think it is incomplete and is creating a new set of misconceptions.

---

I agree. And I think unavoidable when something completely new is introduced. In the beginning it may be best to pick one message to keep it simple and understandable. With experience the other technique options can be introduced when people are ready and able to use them or will be discovered in practice as skill level increases. And the expanding contact with other people helps expand knowledge. Opening these other boxes.

Time to go fishing. With a bit of luck I'm off to the family vacation home tomorrow for 10 days to two weeks. ;)