Q- fly to tippet knot?

Hello everyone, just a quick question.

I have been using the Pitzen Knot a lot lately and it works great, easy to tie as well. I recently picked up a magazine issue that illustrated a knot they called the "Fisherman's Knot" which was unlike any other version of a fisherman's knot I have ever seen before. It did look like a Pitzen Knot, but instead of winded the tag end around the standing part and the loop, they simply wound the loop around the standing part of the line and then passed the tag through the end of the loop.

Is there a significant difference there? It seems that winding the loop this way may even be a little easier than pinching the end of the loop to the standing line and winding around the fly. But if it's weaker, then there's no advantage.

Just wondering...

Without a picture or video its hard to tell about the fisherman's knot. Probably you will have to experiment with the new knot to see if it's stronger, or weaker or just as good. Then let us know what you found out.
I have used the Pitzen knot for years and never knew the name of it til I read this thread and looked it up. More recently I have been using the clinch knot and the improved clinch, especially on streamers. Good luck with your search. Jim

I've used that knot in the past- couldn't remember its name. It's a darn strong knot.

Chuck

Ok, here we go, as I mentioned, I have used the Pitzen knot, and I like it. It's strong, it's easy to tie, and if you do it right, it clicks to let you know the knot has set. It's also been called the 16-20 knot.

I scanned the pic of the knot from the magazine that I found it in. I don't want to get into trouble for copying someone else's work, but I can't draw worth beans. Here it is:

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/a...achmentid=8600

As I metioned, the loop formed is twisted around the main line with this knot. The Pitzen knot takes the tag of the loop and winds that back towards the eye of the hook. Otherwise, these knots are very similar. I tried a test, I tied five samples of each, and pull tested them by hand in 2X tippet. The Pitzen knot help in each case, this "fisherman's knot" broke. I'm not claiming any authority as a knot tester, I'm just saying that it seems to me that this knot is weaker. Now, I had to pull really hard to break the line, but in each case, the line broke in the knot. The knot will probably hold for 99% of all the fish I catch, but I still like the security of the Pitzen knot.

Just saying, and if I have offended anyone with this I am sincerely sorry, I'm just posting my results. If anyone has their own results to share, please do. I am very open to learning something.

Thanks

I have used The fisherman's knot for 2 years and is tough and strong. It is meant to be tied with forceps. Put the the tag end through the eye of the hook make a 2 or 3inch loop and hold the tag end by the hooks eye. Take your forceps(closed) through the loop. Twist the loop and running line together 3 turns. Open your forceps and grab the tagend and pull through the loop.
The pitzen knot tests very strong but for me it breaks after 4 or 5 fish ( your mileage may vary)
By the way the fishman's Knot is lightening fast to tie w/ forceps.

This guy calls this a nail not but it is actually the fisherman knot http://www.beaucatcher.com/Fly_Fishing_Knots.html

I guess I'm just too old to change and stubborn. Never had much of a problem with the plain old 'Improved Cinch Knot'. Maybe it's not the best or strongest. Then again I'm talking freshwater not saltwater. Anyway, it works for me.

Allan

When I look at that knot, I think I'll stay with the improved clinch

Interesting looking knot. I've always use the Improved Clinch but it doesn't allow the fly to move independently of the knot. The Fisherman's Knot looks like it would have an open loop and allow the fly to move without being controlled by the knot.

The "Fisherman's Knot" is what I always thought was a Pitzen knot. I've been using this knot for about 10 years and find it very easy to tie and very strong. The hardest part about tying it is threading the tippet through the eye of the hook. The only attribute it does not have is it does not allow and open loop for the fly, like the non-slip loop knot does.

Ted

Are we SERIOUS???. Does anyone REALLY worry about a "NEW" knot?. I've been fly fishing for a hunnert years and have used 3 knots. One to tie fly to tippet. One to tie tippet to leader and one to tie leader to line. I have NO clue what they're called but they've worked for a hunnert years.

Mark
PS: Forgot about the shoelace knot. ( But seldom tie that one)

I use this....

http://www.rackelhanen.se/eng/10066.htm

A pitzen knot by a different name??

Brad

I use this;

http://www.compleatangler.biz/Knots/BiminiTwist.htm

Just kiddin! I like the good ole improved clinch knot - but I haven't been usin it for a "hunnert" years, not even fitty years, like Marco! LOL!! He (Marcos) looks very well preserved for his age! Just funnin ya Sir!

Best regards, Dave S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaboom1

I use this....

http://www.rackelhanen.se/eng/10066.htm

A pitzen knot by a different name??

Brad

---

That looks exactly like the "Fisherman's Knot" I read about in the magazine. The Pitzen is different in that only the tag end of the loop is wound around the rest, and it is wound from the bend of the loop back to the eye of the hook.

I used to use the improved clinch as well, but once I found the Pitzen, I switched to that. From what I've found, it's stronger, easier to tie, smaller on the end of the hook, and uses less material. That and I like that it lets you know when its sets properly, no little click - the knot ain't right. Other than that, my list of knots is very small too. I have to confess that I do own a copy of Ashley's, but the knots you need for living these days are much fewer. For me, I use the nail knot, blood knot, surgeon's knot, pitzen, and no-slip loop.

I believe the knot you show is called the "Eugene's Bend". Never heard it called the Fisherman's Knot. Very similar to a Pitzen but, IMO, easier to tie and just as strong. Nice thing is it "pops" when it seats so you know you've done it right.

I have been using the "Eugene's Bend" knot for over a year and like it very much and I really like hearing/feeling the "pop" when tightening the knot because I then know it has been tied correctly. If I do not hear/feel the "pop", I re-tie it. It has proved to be a very good stong knot and easy to tie.

Lefty calls a Pitzen a "fisherman's knot" in his book. A rose by any other name....
I did an article on the classic pitzen http://www.flyanglersonline.com/feat...ese/122208.php

I've always used just two knots, not for a hunnert years, but a little over fitty. Clinch knot (not improved) for tippet to fly. Seven turns for sizes smaller than 20, five turns for larger sizes. Blood knot for leader to tippet. I've been tying those knots for so long now, I can do them in the dark with my eyes closed. Never had a problem with them, and see know reason to change now.

Why do I prefer the unimproved clinch? I have never had a properly tied unimproved clinch slip. Can't say that about the "improved". I think the addition of the tag end through the loop may sometimes prevent the knot from seating properly, especially in heavier tippets.

Just my $0.02, not adjusted for inflation. As always, others mileage may vary.

I specified fly size rather than tippet size regarding the clinch knot. Should have read " seven turns on 6X and smaller, five turns on 5X and larger,"

A few years ago I re-invented this knot and now most of the fishing club here uses it. Along with another member we taught it at the Toronto Fly Fishing show in a seminar on leaders. The makers of one of the knot tying tools calls it the "6" knot which is very descriptive. Here are the written instructions for tying it with hemostats. In this way I can change a fly in 20 seconds - which is a VERY good reason to learn it.

Hemostat Knots
In a normal Pitzen knot the tag end is wrapped around both the (reversed) loop and the standing line, and then is put through the remaining portion of the loop. http://teosinte2.agron.missouri.edu/...ng/pitzen.html

If you look only at the portion of line that has gone through the eye of the hook and formed the knot, you will see that the knot itself is a cinch knot. A Pitzen Knot is a Cinch Knot (back) around a standing line. (The knot shown is called a sixteen/twenty knot. Perhaps the distinction between it and a Pitzen is the direction that the tag goes through the knot loop. It does not matter here.)

I do not wrap the tag end around the loop with either my fingers or hemos as many knots are tied. In this version, the hemos act like a stick to wrap/twist a loop around the standing line (while coincidentally wrapping the standing line around the hemos too). Then the hemos are opened slightly to grasp the tag end and pull it through the wrapped mess.

　
I am right handed. When doing the following knot I hold the fly in my left hand. Your fly line and rod are on considered to be on your right.

Put the fly on the tippet and pull about 5" of material through the eye.
Bring the end of the tippet (tag) back to the right, parallel to the standing line and hold both standing line and tag end with your right hand. This allows you to momentarily let go of the fly and reposition your left hand.

Pinch the eye of the fly between your left thumb and forefinger or palm of your left hand, which at the same time secures the tippet in the bent (returned) position. When you pinch the fly and tippet, do so with the fly more towards the middle of your thumb & finger pads or palm.

Now with your right hand, take the tag end and make a (circle) loop back toward the
hook (left thumb pinch) and lay the tag end in the crack between your thumb and forefinger, near the hook eye, with about 3/4" of the end tag protruding upwards from the pinch. You are now holding the fly and all tippet in your left hand. The tippet should be forming a "6" image/figure.



To clarify,

1. You will probably not see your fly because you are crushing it in the pinch of your left thumb and forefinger (or in the palm of your left hand).
2. To the right of the pinch will be the standing (incoming) line and a loop about 1+1/2" across.
3. Sticking up above the pinch will be about 3/4" of tippet. Do you see the "6"?

Take your hemos (in your right hand, obviously) and unsnap them, but keep the tips together. Engage the standing line with your right pinkie finger, or between your right ring finger, this will be about 7" to 10" from the fly, and gently draw your hands apart horizontally. The purpose of this is to keep the standing line parallel to the hemostats. The concern now is to keep a light tension between your left and right hand to ensure the standing line between your hands doesn't sag so much that you are chasing it when you do the next step.

With the hemo tip closed, insert the tip into the loop at your left thumb about 1", but not past the hinge on the hemos. The standing line should be lying alongside the hemos. You have not grabbed (pinched) anything with the hemos yet ? keep them on your fingers.
Next, act as if you are trying to wrap (twist) the tip of the hemos (+ loop) around the standing line - by rotating your right wrist (mildly) 3 times (no more - and it doesn't matter whether clockwise or counter-clockwise). The loop and the standing line BOTH wrap (twist) around the hemos and make what looks like a mess. Leaving the hemos in the ?mess?, open them very slightly and grasp the tag end (which should be readily accessible above your left thumb/pinch). Gently pull the tag end THROUGH the mess. Open your hemos slightly and carefully and extract them (mostly backwards) from any line still around them. Return the hemos to their 'home'.

Holding the fly in your left hand and the standing line in your right, moisten the knot and pull your hands apart thus tightening the knot, you should feel the knot do the 'Pitzen lock'.

Why this works:

In this version the loop and the standing line are wrapped together and the tag end is pulled through everything, including the remaining portion of the loop. It works because when the hook and the standing line are pulled, the standing line becomes stiff and slick, and the wraps sort themselves out because they are at that point the only supple part.

Not to brag but, using this method I can do a Pitzen knot in 20 seconds (and you soon will too), so I have ceased to care about absolute knot strength. It is the only knot I use because I can get back to fishing.


Now realizing that you have tied a knot around a standing line, it is easy to move on to the next step. Use the same knot routine to tie a knot around a line that is different than the line that makes the knot. Then we can have back to back Pitzens and create leaders or join tippets to leaders. It is much faster for me than the Blood Knot.

Hoping this helps - I wish I could send a video. There is a brass tool that does this job and other knots. It can do a cinch knot very easily, but not an 'improved' one. It costs $20 Cdn and is just another thing to carry, but if you have a fly shop in your area you could go and look at the instructions and then use your hemos instead of the tool. [url-http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...equestid=45296] Cabelas [/url]

In the time it takes to get my hemos off my chest and put them back, I can tie an Orvis (Becker) Knot.

http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/index.html

Seems to me the best knot is always the one you can tie with near-frozen fingers, in failing light and without even thinking about it. The improved clinch knot has always fulfilled these criteria for me.

I use one knot to tie all my flies to my tippet, the Turle Knot. It is almost identical to the Orvis Knot except you let the fly slide down the leader then bring it back up through the knot, while on the Orvis Knot you tie the know where the fly is on the tippet. Both knots are 100% knots andexcellent knots for fluorocarbon.

Larry ---sagefisher---

I like the Orvis knot as well. It just works! and is so freaking quick to tie.