Why Is This A Bad Place For Trout To Winter?

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/y...s/d8c21bf2.jpg

Let's hear your thoughts?

I have my theory...................

Want some input here.

...cuz its such a great-looking spot that every poacher in Wisconsin knows about it?
...cuz the fish might get impaled by falling pine needles?
...too much icy cold water flowing down from above?
...no hiding spots for trout-food critters?
...its really shallow up under that rock ledge?
...the King of the River lives there, and he eats all the other trout?

Does that stream flow into a cave? I can't see the river emerging from the rock overhang.

Because it is in Wisconsin:grin::)

First off I bet you are asking what a “Wintering” hole is. It is typically the deepest hole in the area that trout school up in and spend their winter. There are a few factors that make a good wintering hole. Slow current is required so the trout can hold in place. There typically is a fast water top of the hole to bring in food.
I fished this hole 10 times last March. It was new permission and I was really excited. I thought it looked like MONSTER water. I took friends a couple times because I didn’t believe I was doing so poorly. 10 outs….4 anglers total and ZERO trout.
I was looking at the photo this morning. The hole is clearly deep and it is the deepest hole in the area. The current is slow on the deep section.
There is a current section at the top of the hole. I just couldn’t solve the riddle. I put the photo on close up. I looked at the water first. Then I looked at the rock.
My educated guess tells me the HUGE rock face is facing north and west. This is the direction the winds typically come from in the winter here. There is lots of rock exposed . This rock face sucks up all that cold and transfers it too the water. This rock face super cools this hole.
I looked at the shallows and noted the bottom was very silty and thought about that also. If a trout wants to winter it needs food. Invertebrates need a food source to live there. Silty bottom means no food source for the main stay of that trout’s winter menu.

The water is too cold and there is no food.

I can't say about the food but I don't agree that the rock face is making the water is too cold.

Rock acts like a huge temperature sink that moderates the temperature. Because of it's mass, it is slow to heat and slow to cool. It could make the water slower to cool in the early winter and slower to warm up in the spring; but in mid winter, I think the rock below ground at the level of the water would be close to average temperature at that depth in the same area.

Wind speed has no effect on the actual air temperature. It does make things cool or warm faster. So the rock surface would get a bit cooler or warmer faster, but this temperature needs to be transmitted to the below ground to affect the water temperature at depth. At any depth, that rock is surrounded by the ground which moderates the temperature of the rock. If the rock is colder than the surrounding ground as you believe, the rock gets warmed. So as the cold air temperature moves through the rock underground, the surrounding ground moderates the temperature of the rock making those temperatures equal.

The ground is virtually an unlimited temperature sink. It can warm that rock to ambient ground temperature without any problem.

Therefore, I believe the temperature of the rock next to the deep water is exactly the same temperature as the soil bottom that is next to another hole that is just as deep. Temperature changes in the air are not instantaneously transmitted under the ground by rock. It takes time, and time moderates any temperature changes.

Your temperature theory is easy to test. Put a thermometer in the water to see if it is colder than the water above this area. Since cold water is denser that warm water and sinks to the lowest spot, you need to test the water at the same depth in both places. An infrared thermometer could be a way of easily testing the surface water temperatures.

I can't seem to solve the hole.
I fished 10 times throughout the year.
It took me a dozen stops at the landowner's house to find him home for permission.
Finally after 2 years of trying to get permission I got to fish it and was very disappointed
in the lack of fish.
Some times you lose.

I agree that the location looks spectacular. Has the DNR done any shocking that can tell you if there are even fish there?

You said the bottom is silty. I would ask if there any Hexs there, but you probably have already checked that out.

Another thought I have is anchor ice making the bottom inaccessible to the fish.

http://www.lakesuperiorstreams.org/u...anchorIce.html

it would be a good place for the hex...have not seen any....this river really warms up fast. Middle of July to end of August I don't fish it because it is too warm.

I held out that maybe a monster lives there. Will give a shot in May when it warms up a little this year.

will give it a couple 3 more tries this year.

this is what the top end of the hole looks like.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/y...s/972b4816.jpg

Just a thought as I look at the pictures, could there be a small underwater cave there that would provide a place for the fish to be during the harsh winter? If there is, the water temperatures would be warmer there which could also provide more food. Just thinking out loud......

Couple points.

Not catching a fish there does not equal no fish there, although for someone of your skill level it would be hard to imagine not catching fish if they are there. But the only way you will really know is to snorkel the hole or run a camera through it. To me it looks like a perfectly good spot for fish to hold in the winter. Maybe there is something in there that eats all the other fish, like one of those leg-long brownies waiting for a fly the size of a muskrat.

Water only gets "too cold" for trout when it becomes frozen solid. I have caught fish (and not one or two but hundreds over the years) out of pools that had ice shelves out from the edges, slush floating down the thalweg, and/or anchor ice on the rocks in the shallows. We have resident trout here in creeks that are frozen completely over, then covered with several feet of snow, for several months out of the year. They manage.

At cold temps oxygen is not going to be a problem unless there is some chemical reason it is being lost. There is enough surface area there to oxygenate the water.

Silt is not a deal breaker either. Lots of inverts use silt, and whatever is UPstream of that is providing food as well.

I would be looking upstream for answers. Effluent from a cattle operation, little rainbows in the water from some old dump site, acid runoff, or a warm spring that draws in fish from downriver. Maybe in March all the fish are up on spawning areas elsewhere in the river.

Let us know what you figure out. Cause that spot screams trout to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DG

...Water only gets "too cold" for trout when it becomes frozen solid. I have caught fish (and not one or two but hundreds over the years) out of pools that had ice shelves out from the edges, slush floating down the thalweg, and/or anchor ice on the rocks in the shallows. We have resident trout here in creeks that are frozen completely over, then covered with several feet of snow, for several months out of the year. They manage.....

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... a couple weeks ago this stretch of water was completely iced over. Above it were patches of open water, but there was serious anchor ice in most places. Today, after a few days of warm weather ...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...001_edited.jpg

... this guy was the second fish hooked and first one landed out of that spot ...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...002_edited.jpg

... out of a dozen plus hooked and seven or so in hand.

This spot, several hundred yards upstream, was also all but completely frozen over and studded with anchor ice at that time ...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...013_edited.jpg

... and today gave up this guy ...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...014_edited.jpg

... and two more nice fishies, including another 17" bow.

In between the above two spots, was a riffle that slowed just a bit ( not nearly so slow as the ice that choked it a couple weeks ago ) and had an extra foot of depth and gave up four more trouts today, three mid-teen" bows and a smaller brown.

On a quarter mile of recently all but completely frozen water, between shelf ice, anchor ice, and surface ice cover, I hooked over 20 resident trouts ( one brown, a half dozen plus cutts, and well over a dozen bows ) and landed around fourteen.

John

P.S. Did I mention that getting the fly down was, on and off, rather difficult because of all the slush ice in the creek ??

just upstream of the rock face.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/y...s/e1cca6de.jpg
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/y...s/0d99dfa2.jpg
I did catch trout in these two holes.

The obvious answer to the question, to me anyway, is it's in Wisconsin where it's too cold to fish and the season is closed.

Does the rest of the stream fish well? If not, there might bea water chemistry problem, perhaps something as simple as pH. If so, then you might see if some twigs and leaves, of a less acid nature (maple instead of oak or pine) might create a patch of cover that draws invertebrates. Does the pool scour regularly? If so, then there might never be enough food for the bugs to live there and attract fish. Does it fish well at times of day when the sun isn't on the water, scaring off the fish? There are many reasons why it might not fish well. I can only guess at a few.

Ed

it is a feast or famine stream