Hook in vise

OK, this is a serious question, though it may not come across that way.

I have been tying for about a year now, and when sitting down to the vise I often wonder whether I should have the hook in the vise just enough to hold it, or deep enough to cover the point? It came up again as I was watching a couple of videos on tying the Prince Nymph, one had the hook just in the jaws and the other barely had any point showing.

I can see advantages to both methods, especially the buried point when you have to sweep hair or hackle back, like for wet or wingless hair fly. I can also see an advantage for shallow mounting when using the barb or point as references.

So, which is the typical method, deep or shallow. Or is it just a matter of preference?

I bury the little ones, so they don't come flying out at me. Larger? Not so much

Gordon,

I agree with both of your reasons, but I have had the hook point break off when hiding it in the jaws. So...

Joe

The inside of your vice jaws are flat. If you grip the hook where the wire is level the grip will be all along the edges of the wire. If you grip the hook where the wire is tapering then becoming straight the grip will only be at either side of the point where the taper begins. Here is a sketch to illustrate what I mean.
Attachment 12384As it takes greater pressure to grip the wire at one point it will result in wear and damage to the vice jaws much quicker than gripping it where it is level. It is also pressure at this one point that has resulted in Joe's broken hooks.

Some people ignore this for the convenience of hiding the hook point. Understanding this though, leaves two positions. Learn to miss the hook point and have longer life of your vice jaws. Don't learn to miss the hook point and replace your vice jaws more often (not more often than anyone else, but than you would if you did it the other way). You pays your money and takes your choice.

Cheers,
A.

I agree with Alan (many people say I'm always missing the point; in this case it comes in handy). Just a matter of keeping the thread out of the tube short and adjusting the angle when you're at the back end. There have been a few times, when I first started packing deer hair, that I had wished the point was buried in the jaws and not the tip of my finger, but I learned to avoid that.

Regards,
Scott

I agree, don't bury the hook point in the jaws.

Did you get an instruction manual for your vice? What does the manufacturer recommend?

AlanB's point is interesting, but I cannot speak to its validity. The main reason I do not recommend 'burying the point' is if you do you are unnecessarily handicapping yourself. The vise is designed to hold the hook in such as way to minimize the amount of area held by the vise in order to maximize the space available to the tier to navigate a pattern.

If you bury your point, how are you going to accidently cut your thread while tying a fly. Seriously, I like to get the shaft of the hook up and out from the jaws of the vise, as much as I safely can, and sometimes canted to allow access to the gap and to allow adding tail materials and hackle, depending upon the fly.

Guess I position the hook the way I was taught years ago - point visible and bend easily accessible. I forgot the specific reasoning behind this positioning. I believe it had to do with possibly breaking the hook if the point is 'buried', and more accessibility if the hook is placed in the jaws at the low end of the bend. Of course practice and hand eye coordination leads to reducing the times you catch and break the thread. Alan - You wrote, "The inside of your vice jaws are flat". Really? I have 3 vises, my Regal, Universal, and my Dyna King have serrations or groves along the inside of the jaws. Allan

Even if your vices have grooves the point AllanB made is still applicable. I keep the hook point visible. I have tried burying it but find that it makes putting materials on the hook more difficult. Just my two cents.

The grooves force you to have the point exposed though when tying on a hook of an appropriate size, and only increase the contact around the circumference of the wire. We are essentially talking about small to medium size hooks here as you can't mask the hook point on really large hooks. Mine also has two pockets in one jaw. The smaller one will only take around size 10 and larger hooks. Anything smaller is held in the flat tips forward of the pocket.
Cheers,
A.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and good reasons for positioning the hook. I tie on a Danvise and have an old kit vise. Both have flat jaws and the Danvise jaws open and close parallel to each other. So the grooves and all I don't have to worry much about. But after tying some SHWAPF's this past weekend and burying the point in my thumb or index finger, index finger looks like a well used pincushion, at least once on every fly, I think I will pretty much bury the point when I have to sweep hair or hackle back.

p.s. I tie between #6 and #20 and mostly #12 through #16.

When I pull back materials, I do so with my thumb, index and middle fingers. My middle finger and thumb come together and meet vertically at the bottom of the hook. That provides a place for the hook point to go between them, reducing pokes. I still get poked sometimes. YMMV.

Can someone identify an instructional book on fly tying in which the author recommends burying the point of the hook?Not that that precludes using that method if you prefer it but I'm just asking because I haven't found any.

I have seen it (burying the hook point) recommended. I think I know where but I'm not 100% sure. I didn't buy the book, partly because I thought that was bad advise.

OK, it was here: http://www.amazon.com/Tying-Trout-Ny...der_1878175874

Look at page 4.

GREAT. Now I have the authority of Deke Meyer for burying the hook. Thanks Jay!
:D

I suggest that you not only "don't bury the point" but also "don't bury the barb". The thinned down section at the root of the lancing cut made in raising the barb is the weakest spot in the hook. Keep the barb area exposed also.

Jay,

IMHO, there is no wrong way to tye flies. Some ways are considered and widely accepted as being better then others. Regardless, if you're more comfortable with one method, use it. However, I have looked through about 12 instructional fly tying books by renown tiers and the one you cited is the only one in which the hook is positioned in the vise like that. Again, if you're comfortable and it works for you, have at it.
Tight wraps.

Allan

I found another one: http://www.amazon.com/Tie-Your-Own-F...der_1438256051

I have this book. The book on Amazon says copyright 2010, but my copy must be from the '60s. Deke Meyer's and Patrick's books are the only ones I remember with that advise.

If you look at the illustrations of the hook in the vise, you can see how little space there is between the rear part of the shank and the vise jaws. For me that outweighs any possible advantage. Plus the possibility of damaging the hook point. It's not for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ray Kunz

I suggest that you not only "don't bury the point" but also "don't bury the barb". The thinned down section at the root of the lancing cut made in raising the barb is the weakest spot in the hook. Keep the barb area exposed also.

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I have broken more than one point off debarbing some of the smaller sizes. Despite my facetious comment above, I normally secure the hook on the bend and work the thread around the point and very carefully pull back hair and hackle when I have too. I have found that having as much of the shank unobstructed as possible make the tying a bit easier.