Trico Spinner Tails

I have recently been reading the book "Matching Major Eastern Hatches" by Henry Ramsay. In his chapter on Tricos, Ramsay had a suggestion that I found very interesting ... that Trico spinners should be tied without tails.

Obviously, the natural spinners have tails (and in fact, very long tails). But the author's suggestion is that by eliminating the tails, the fly's footprint on the water is significantly reduced in size which results in less micro-drag. In my experience fishing Trico spinners, getting a very accurate and very drag free drift is critical, so Ramsay's idea seems like it has a lot of merit. I'm wondering if anyone has experience or thoughts about this.

What about flotation/stability of fly?

If you use fine tippet and make a decent cast, drag should not be a big concern. With Tricos, especially the spinners, I'd rather have the tails to help the fly float horizontally then with the butt hanging down, unless that's the presentation you're trying for.

Allan

How does not tying in a tail reduce drag?

In my view drag is caused not by the fly but by the tippet pulling tight to the fly and not allowing the fly to move with the current. I doubt there is any current differential between where the body of a trico is and the tail is.

With drag when fishing spinner pattens (we don't have Tricos) I found that attaching it with a fixed loop knot is the biggest step forward. When I started doing that the number of takes increased dramatically. For this I use a Rapala knot now. Not the easiest knot around, and it has to be re tied more frequently. It is though, worth the effort.
In my experience of fishing spinner pattens tails are better oversized than undersized or absent. As is often said though "your mileage may vary". Try tying a few without tails and fish them, but make sure you have some of your usual pattens with you. Then you can compare.

Cheers,
A.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silver Creek

I doubt there is any current differential between where the body of a trico is and the tail is.

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Maybe I didn't describe it well, but the author indeed was talking about current differential between the body and tail. So, for example, a slightly faster current on the tail could drag the body. But, we're talking about a total length (tail plus body) of less than half inch, so maybe that's splitting hairs.

I like AlanB suggestion of trying it and let the fish judge. Maybe I'll be prepared to snip the tails on a fly in a trico spinner fall situation and see if it makes any difference.

It seems to me that the Ramsay's point would be valid ONLY IF the tails of the natural tricos spinners were not on/in the water so the naturals would drift differently than a fly that had tails on/in the water. Tricos have a relatively longer tail (larger tail/body length ratio) than most mayflies, so only a portion of their tail needs to be in/on the water relative to other mayflies.

http://photos.captureminnesota.com/p...cg/display.jpg


Here are photos I found on the web of trico spinners. At least on these photos of spent spinners, the tails are on/in the water.




http://www.bighornflyfishing.com/wp-...O1-400x266.jpg


http://www.intheriffle.com/frontend/...ner-mayfly.jpg


http://www.headhuntersflyshop.com/wp...ing-Images.jpg


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VNTYcTRdHf...0/vaca+023.jpg


http://nickpricephotography.com/stat...04728893/1000w

I use paint brush bristles for these long tail flies... what do you use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mahanvey

I use paint brush bristles for these long tail flies... what do you use?

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The paint brush fibers I've seen are generally to thick and stiff. So I prefer good long 'spade hackle' fibers. However, there are times when I use microfibbets. The March Brown duns on the Beaverkill, E. & W. Branch Del. and Willowemoc have tails longer then the body. The spinners have tails that may exceed 1-1/2 inches. Isonychias have extra long tails as do some of the other drakes. Microfibbets seem to fit the bill and are more easy to get then the long hackle needed.

I have been thinking about the original point of this thread for a couple days now.

Wonder if anyone recalls Gary LaFontqaine's point about a "living, breathing insect".

Yes, a free drift is extremely important in presenting a fly. However, I wonder if this makes sense to you: A long-tailed dead trico, free floating, will come across tiny "micro currents" in its float. It is impossible for an insect or tiny fly not to turn a bit as it free floats given the space of water its body occupies on the meniscus with those long tails.

Seems to me anyway.

Sometimes, I repeat - sometimes - a drag free, and that in itself is difficult to define, is not necessary or even desired. Check out Hewitt and his use of the Neversink Skaters, bomber patterns and other patterns where creating a wake or movement is desired.
Byron, you seem to say that insects have natural drift and drag. Completely agree.

Haven't tried these yet as the trico's are significant here when the bass season is open so I don't spend much time trout fishing. The short tail may provide some stability. It is possible that fish eat tricos with 'stunted' tails;)
Attachment 11930

I've got two fly fishing authors that paint the trike hatch in words for me...Hemingway and Marinaro:


"As far down the river as he could see, the trout were rising, making circles all down the surface of the water, as though it were starting to rain."-E.H. Big Two Hearted River


"As far as the eye could see,several hundred yards at least, the entire surface of the water was a mass of dimpling rise forms, occurring and recurring with increasing tempo as the evening advanced." V. Marinaro...A Modern Dry Fly Code.


The Trike hatch is my favorite fly fishing experience. I catch fish after fish after fish during the spinner fall....all my black and whites have always had tails as long as I could find and I never had a problem attracting or hooking a trout.


Size is all important, and be mindful that the bugs get smaller as the hatch progressive. When the fish are on #28 you're not going to do very well on #20. Here's a bowl full of #24...note the tails.

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/v...wing/006-1.jpg

hairwing,

Totally agree even though in the Catskill Rivers the fish get on the duns and the spinners as early as when the fog lifts in the morning. A few years ago I was going to attend a program at the Catskill Fly Fishing Center and I was fishing the Willow about a mile west of the Center. I watched as the sun rose and burnt off the morning dew, the tricos started dancing and the fish started rising.
All my tricos have tails and I was fishing in gin clear water. Oh, and as you said, SIZE does matter. I was actually able to watch fish come up to size 20 and back off. Put on a size smaller and the fish did the same. Got down to 28 with an 8x, or maybe it was a 9x tippet, and the fish quietly sucked that spinner in. Several fish latter I had to leave and it was barely 9:00am. I've also used size 30 and 32s tricos and tiny olives on same stretch of water and landed 4 legal size trout. Oh it's C&R water.

Allan

Allen,


" in the Catskill Rivers the fish get on the duns and the spinners as early as when the fog lifts in the morning.",Your quote.


Locally the duns hatch at or before daybreak, and I gave up long ago trying to fish the hatch since the fish seemed uninterested. I'm sure they conditioned themselves to the massive spinner fall and were willing to wait. Here around Denver the mating occurs soon after the sun comes over the ridges allowing the flies to dry their wings. Fish activity starts shortly and goes on for about an hour to sometimes two hours, so it's fast and furious. Most fish porpoise right under the surface or move to shallow water to feed rather than rising up and down from a three or four foot deep holding spot expending too much energy.


94840 #28's are small and when the hatch starts to peter out and the flies reach this size seems only the smaller fish are eating them. Signals time for new tactics for me.






John,


No I haven't tried them without tails. Never occurred to me since what I've been using works more than ok with me.


I was addressing the OP in which johnstoeckel relates that Ramsay states...."that Trico spinners should be tied without tails." Seemed pretty dogmatic when in my experience I had no trouble with the tails, so I thought I would express my opinion. This micro-drag concept related to tails in my way of thinking is a little far fetched.

John,


I have to tell you too that I haven't read Ramsay's book and haven't factored the "micro-drag" idea in my fishing either. I can put some pretty mean slack in my fly line when needed and must be compensating....or I'm fishing for the same dumb fish you're fishing for. That must be it! ;)

John,
I can tell you that I have been standing near the bank on the Henry's Fork and seen all sorts of spinners floating by. They are often spun around by changing currents................

I think John Scott's by line "The fish are always right" says it all. There are way too many variables (per John's post above) and opinions on this for me to sort through, so I'm going to let the fish tell what's right. When I'm fishing a trico spinner fall in a few months, I'm going to get in a groove by catching some fish with my usual fly (with tails) and then I'll clip the tails short and see what happens.

Just about as often as not, fly fishing gurus and most notably authors on the subject, are as right about their views as would be anyone else with a reasonable amount of exprience. Just like a broken clock, they've got to be right twice in a given cycle. Tails needed? Allow me to add to what John's signature comment, "The fish are always right" ... 'and therefore, they are more right then writers, authors and fly fishermen'.

I happen to respect the "respected" fly fishing authors. Ones who come immediately to mind are Mike Lawson, Rene Harrop, Craig Mathews, Gary LaFontaine, Randal Kaufman, Jack Dennis, etc., etc.

These guys have logged many, many more hours fishing, tying and studying insects, rivers, and trout than I dare say any of us.

I have learned a lot from these guys and really respect their observations and opinions..........

Gary Borger, for example.