Marinaro and Thor-x flies

James and all,

I am contemplating working with duns and spinners more frequently in my fishing. Regionally, this entails Missouri and Arkansas, my home haunt so middle west not midwest, not south. Most of these waters do not have prolific Mayfly hatches; nymph and emerger fishing is more productive at all times. Further, the trout feed on Terrestials, crayfish etc with a heavy influence of caddis flies.

But Mayflies are troublesome in the dry fly form. I have used Carl Richards techniques for many years, influenced by John Betts. Later on I came back to the quill flies which in my earlier fishing career I only purhcased, never tied.

So then my fly tying melded Betts, Richards and Best into a scheme that has been successful(Though now I have been seeing a lot of realistic flytying (For fishing not for presentation) abeing touted by Fly Tyer
Magazine and so on....there is now a discussion board site realisticflytying.com.
At any rate, the directions for tying the
thorax using the method of hackling the fly is very troublesome. Have you included or refined the technique?

I was thinking that in a lot of cases the thorax fly could be tied on a smaller hook using an extended body method for the abdomen which would be light, and give the apparance that you present in the "Just Flies" article. I have yet to figure out how I would do that to be able to use quill which I dearly like to use a la AK Best.

Anyway, I thought this might start a discussion of this and Mr. Marinaro's "In the Ring of the Rise" and your work on this fly.

Regards,
David Bell

Dear daipdq:
I shall offer my professional expertise on this topic but briefly (ha!) because this new FAOL thing is keeping me from working on my fly orders.
In 1989 I started tying commercially for Cathy & Barry Beck's former fly shop, Fishing Creek Outfitters in Benton, PA. Not long after getting into this, I more or less became a dry fly specialist because of the demand for certain flies. Their shop sold the Beck's "Polyfluff Thorax Duns (a modified poly wing version of Marinaro's Thorax Duns as well as the "original" Marinaro Thorax Dun. In Trout Flies by Dave Hughes, the author credits Mike Lawson with taking the troublesome two-feather, opposite wound, figure-eight hackle winding technique and substitutes it for one "single excellent quality hackle." I recently asked Barry Beck about this and Barry told me that Mike Lawson had visited Fishing Creek Outfitters around 1990 and saw how Barry, according to him, (who personally knew Vince Marinaro) had refined Vince's Thorax Dun into the single hackle version mentioned by Hughes in Trout Flies. However or by whom the one hackle version came to be is irrelevant. It makes this pattern much easier to tie.
I tied Marinaro Thorax Duns, among a score of other dry fly patterns (Comparaduns also a specialty) commercially for three-and-a-half years for Fishing Creek Outfitters. I can tie Marinaro Thorax Duns so fast that I have used up an ENTIRE hen back for the paired wings of the fly in a single day. I once tied 13 DOZEN in about nine hours.
To me the Marinaro Thorax Dun (simplified one-hackle version) is easy to tie. With material ready, I can tie one of these in less than three minutes. Enough bragging. I only say that to tell you I know whereof I speak.
Here's my advice: Place the wing as specified. When the hackle is wound make equal number of windings behind and in front of the wing. A little dubbing in front of the hackle & a whip finish.
I suggest to use Microfibetts on the tail, (easier to use than any other tailing material). Keep the tail sparse, no more than 4 fibers per side on a #12 hook. 3 fibers per side on smaller hook. Use a simple "figue-eight" method with no more than four wraps to divide the tail. Not the cumbersome "fur-ball" recommended by Caucci / Nastasi in their book Hatches.(I can tie on the tail fibers and divide them perfectly in less than 10 seconds). With a little practice you can do this too!
This is the method of tying in the tail that Vince MENTIONED, but did not actually DESCRIBE at all, in Modern Dry Fly Code when the fly was presented.
This fly was introduced by Marinaro's Modern Dry Fly Code (1950) to a small section of fly fishers (the book was limited in printing). In the second edition of Trout (1952) by Ray Bergman, (Bergman in his position as angling editor of Outdoor Life magazine was the premier angling editorial columnist of the time - there were no fly fishing publications back then), the Marinaro Thorax Dun was presented to the larger section of fly fishing public.
Bergman, commenting on the development of Marinaro's Thorax Dun when the 2nd edition of Trout introduced "new" dry flies, stated it was "an outstanding development in fly construction." While I was doing the research on Ray Bergman for the chapter in Forgotten Flies, I had the chance to read Ray Bergman's hand-written notes relating to the "new" flies that were to be included in the 2nd edition of Bergman's Trout. Before the release of Modern Dry Fly code, Marinaro sent Ray Bergman a sample Thorax Dun in 1948. Ray's personal notes commented (paraphrasing from memory) "this is the most significant development in dry fly construction in a long, long time."
Finally - I was once asked in a fly tying class what my favorite dry fly was for selective trout, flat water, etc., when I needed to make the best possible presentation. I replied, "The Marinaro Thorax Dun."
My customer answered, "Funny you should say that."
"Why?" I queried.
"Ernie Schwiebert said the same thing," came the reply.
This fly (sometimes with the hackle trimmed on the bottom) is a GOOD fly for tough trout.
I once had two clients fishng a sulphur hatch on Spring Creek in one of the most heavily sections of the creek. Some guys say about this water, "throw your hackled flies in the trash."
Long story short, the two anglers fished for nearly a half hour with several patterns, geting looks but no takers. I dug around in my box and found a few #14 Marinaro Thorax Sulphur Duns. Handing one to the closest angler I said, "Here, try this."
One cast, one trout. Ditto, ditto, ditto. I gave one to the other guy as well. They both took fish practically until they had caught all the rising trout in the area.
Tom Baltz of Mt. Holly Springs, PA, knew Vince. Tom still ties Marinaro Thorax Duns the way Vince tied them, with hackle fiber tails, with two hackles wound in the traditional way, etc. Tom is a commercial tyer. Very fast tyer. Very good tyer. It takes HIM an hour to tie five Marinaro Thorax Duns with this method. (No wonder he charges $60.00 per dozen for them!)
That should do it.
Tight threads!


[This message has been edited by Don Bastian (edited 22 March 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Don Bastian (edited 22 March 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Don Bastian (edited 22 March 2005).]

Don,

Thank you for the reply.

I by no means have rubbed shoulders with many of the more well known tyers or fisherman though I can say that meeting John Betts many years ago did have an influence upon me.

I do not tie for business purposes rather to support my habit and because I am interested in the all the aspects of my chosen sport/hobby/obsession.

Ray Bergman's book was my bible 30 years ago and when you mentioned it I walked over to find it on the bookshelf only to recall that I gave my last copy to a young fisherman not long ago.

I do use the method of splitting tails with the figure 8 and had used that you mention by Al C, and I do use synthetics as much as possible and where they make sense due to ease of manipulation and durability...including microfibettes for tails.

The point that James B. illuminates in his presentation of Marinaro's fly has stuck with me so I began experimenting with the using the method in other combinations for a better imprint of a mayfly dun impression on the surface of the water, noting what Vince wrote in reference to the fly in the 'Ring of the Rise'.

I appreciate your comments on Bergman and Schwiebert and I had no idea of this particular historical context and will have to obtain another copy of 'Trout'. I will say this about Bergman--he taught me to fish with a flyrod for trout as I had no one in my personal acqaintance who was really such a fisherman though my father used a flyrod for panfish in the freestone streams of Southern Missouri.

My second exeperience of fishing with a flyrod, now this is 35 years ago I guess, I was using simple cheap store bought flies probably purchased at a hardware store or K-Mart or something, a fly reel mounted on a spinning rod(I couldn't afford the equipment), and brought to net 13 trout in two days of fishing using Bergman's methods and largely, the wetfly which I have never abandoned, well, I now use soft-hackles for the most part. This one trip when I was about 19 or so was what hooked me on fishing for Trout and fishing with a flyrod which is what I use probably 90% of the time now.

I did see someone offering display art based on the traditional flies represented in the plates of the book Trout. Shoot. what kind of display box do they call that? ...it slips my ability to recall of this moment.

I will give your method of tying the thorax fly and note that I guess I was approaching the use you suggest, stripping one side of the feather before hackling.

I guess my observation is that the quill body dry flies have a pronounced effectiveness proven to me on the St. Vrain when I lived in Colorado years ago. I had doubted this at the time but was sold to include them among the flies I tie for fishing. Hence I guess, AK Best in iterating his enthusiasm for quill body flies is important. I also framed a lot of what I use from that time because this is when I met John Betts so perhaps about 1983 or something like that. Funny but the explosion of using synthetics is big business now.

Anyway, the methods of tying including
hackle-less flies, paraduns and flies with trailing shucks ie, from Carl Richards had an influence on what I tie in similar fasion. .

I think you can see why I am influenced to combine methods or at least use a series of flies for circumstances being met on the water.

I do appreciate your comments.

my best,
David