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How much to FFF certified casting instructors charge for lessons? Any do it for free? How much repeat business is done?
Just wondering if being an FFF instructor changes how often a student comes back for follow up lessons as opposed to a non certified instructor. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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dw
'Don't know, what you don't know.'
Hi dwoffroad,
I'm a certified FFF instructor and that fact has nothing to do with whether I charge for lessons or not. Usually I get repeat customers because they feel the instruction I offer is of value to them not because I'm a certified instructor. Yes, some of the knowledge I have is the result of the certification program. On the other hand a lot of my teaching skills come from experiences learned away from the FFF and its programs. Take care & ...
Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:968eb]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:968eb]
Thanks for the info, Al. So is it safe to say that if a student were to take 5 lessons from you before you were FFF certified, it doesn't mean that the same student would learn the same skills in fewer lessons after you become certified? And the rate you charge doesn't change? I had the notion that learning from an FFF instructor would cost more and require fewer lessons. I was thinking about becoming certified and offering lessons as an extension of the hobby. If I offered them for free, would that have a negative impact on the FFF community of instructors? Kind of like if GM were to start giving away their Cadillacs to any one who wanted one - would people's opinion of Cadillacs change? Why would they give them away unless they are very poor quality?
Does that make any sense?
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dw
'Don't know, what you don't know.'
IMHO Al, Extremely well put!
When I got back into fly fishing, years after learning as a kid, I took a few free lessons from a man at a local fly shop. I have no idea if he was FFF certified or not, but he taught me a whole lot very quickly. He was great, and I know he was responsible for my renewed enthusiasm for the sport. Giving away lessons to promote the sport is not the same as giving away free caddys, nor does it lessen the value of the lesson.
Bill
Bill,
I agree, Giving away Caddies isn't the same thing (market perception, prestige etc...) A smart car dealer WOULD give away cars and open a gas station.
Many fine shops "give away" services, deals etc. Goes with nurturing a happy and loyal client. Win/win stuation for clients and shops.
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
A good instructor is a good instructor, sending the FFF a check every year won't make him any better.
Dear dwoffroad, as with any new certification or licensing proceedure, the applicant that passes is a beginner as far as instructional experience is concerned. (Remember the day you received your drivers license? you could drive but could you teach driving to someone else?) But, the fact that they are FFF Certified should gaurantee to the student that the information taught is correct and understood. The purpose of the program is to standardize fly casting information and teaching techniques. I teach the FFF Casting Instructor Certification course and find that many applicants do not have the casting skills to pass the test because they do not have the knowledge on the mechanics of fly casting. Others have the casting skills but no knowledge of the Teaching Process, the Learning Process, Effective Communication or Methods of Instruction. I charge $50 per session. The session may be an hour, sometimes less depending on meeting the students goals. I have a lot of repeat students, progressing with their casting skills. Purebs received a free lesson from me last year at the Fish-In in Florida and may be able to offer some input on the quality of his first lessons compared to mine? May I also state that I hold 3 Federal Instructors Certificates and have been an instructor for 30+ years. In preparing yourself to take the Certification, you will become a better caster. You must want to teach for the love of teaching and enjoyment. Giving these skills away for free shows a lack of professionalism to many seeking instruction. Good luck in your venture, Mike
Sorry Mike, have to disagree with you on your very last statement:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana">quote:</font><HR>
Giving these skills away for free shows a lack of professionalism to many seeking instruction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or should FAOL be charging everyone to come here? We give it away because we CAN.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
I offer a free clinic every year, I enjoy teaching. My clinics also go for alot more then $50. I'm not FFF certified and don't care to be. I'm not in it for the money. I consider myself a very good teacher and I am a professional caster, having won many medals in competion. All getting certified can do for me is give me a referral if someone contacts them looking for a local instructor.
Dear LF, We both know that fly fishing is the sport of sharing and it is a wonderful sport. I share all I can for free and even Fly Casting instruction at times(like at the Fish-Ins). But when running a business as a professional, free does not work! My statement was made for people looking for a professional to provide a service. Best Fishes, Mike
I suppose it depends on what you are looking for, or what you need. The free lessons I got at the shop helped me to go from very sloppy short casts to longer. Though I fished when young, I was a begginer for sure. A few minutes with Mike, helped me cast farther but more importantly to do it with half the effort! Mike does have a very good way of teaching and getting the knowledge across in a way that is easy to understand. at the time, the shop lesson was what I needed to get me on the water, but I think if I were to seek more advancement I would seek a pro like Mike. There is room for both I think, if a shop sells a rod to a new fly fisher and just sends them on their way a lot of them will not enjoy it and give it up. A few lessons can lead to a lifetime customer for the shop and the pro instructor.
Bill
Well put mike. LF knows that this site doesn't run for free either. They wouldn't be selling advertisements like the one Chota has at the top of the screen. Or those silly bumper stickers.
I don't teach fly tying or casting since I consider myself only at the intermediate stage. But as a certified Hunter Ed instructor (3 states) and an NRA certified firearms instructor, I have charged small nomial fees. California allowed for the recovery of expenses, MO and MS do not so any expenses are mine. In my NRA classes I charged by the class (not by the hour). This was neccessary to pay for range time, targets, ammo etc. I can say that I have not made any personal income from these teaching activities. In fact I have given many lessons with out charging simply because I was there and people asked questions or asked for help with problems.
Some may argue that by not charging you leave it open for the criticism that by not charging you are not a Pro. What ever that may mean. Any way I am always pround to have the help formal or informal from anyone that can increase my knoledge.
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Michael (Wooly) Woolum
State Certified Hunter Education Instructor
Hickory, MS
I think anyone could go out and make money off teaching someone how to cast. And if they haven't done much of it would learn a great deal from the preson teaching them. And if they like the way you teach them then thell be back. I'm not FFF cert and never plan to. This goes back 8 months to a year ago or longer. If you know what your doing you can get people to pay. I've had people ask me to teach them who to FF and cast as most have never picked up a Fly rod. I told one lady I couldn't take any money from her but would be glad to help get her . Started and she could join me anytime and I could teach her everything I know. Plus gave her some book titles to read. To me the Cert FFF gives most a piece of paper and a big head that they are better then those without. And if you don't like the so called silly bumper stickers you don't have to get one but don't knock those who do. It's one way of knowing other Fly Fisher people who belong to FAOL.So as my SIG. says to each there own. Later Matt
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To each there own !
Wow. Interesting discussion.
There are without a doubt a lot of great casters and great casting instructors out there that don't have the FFF certification. There are also a lot of great casters out there who have trouble explaining the act of casting to others when they teach. I have had casting lessons from both.
And this is where I think the strength of the FFF certification lies. Certainly you must have good casting skills to pass the test, but the emphasis at least in my FFF experience has been effective instruction. Throwing a perfect loop to 30 or 40 feet is one thing. Explaining how to throw that loop to a novice is entirely something else. In preparing for the FFF test, you are forced to develop and hone your teaching skills. It was frustrating to me as new flyfishing angler to take lessons from fantastic casters who were not effective teachers. When I later took lessons from FFF certified instructors I found that they all had one thing in common - they could teach.
Do you have to be FFF certified to be a great casting instructor? Absolutely not. But the FFF certification has value and I know that when I take a lesson from an FFF instructor that person has worked at being a good teacher as well as caster.
I received my FFF certification nearly a year ago and I do charge a fee for a one-on-one lesson. I also do a lot of free casting clinics for groups like the Boy Scouts and Trout Unlimited.
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It was like that when I got here.
My best lessons have come from testing fly rods. I really look like I need help and am a willing student. Folks want to help so they don't have to look at it anymore.
MikeMV this is probely not going to go over well. But If Im to follow your drivers license example. Are your saying that certified casting instructiors should not be teaching by virtue of the fact that you dont feel they are yet qualified? Or is it that they shouldnt be chargeing to teach as they have not yet reach that level of professionalisem.
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Captn. Paul Darby
Dear Capt Paul, JC and All, this discussion goes over well and I never take offense to comments here. Sometimes we all get too sensitive about this stuff. Capt Paul, I was just pointing out that a new driver may have a skill but it will be a growing skill and the same with an instructor. A new instructor must progress and develop his teaching skills. Being FFF Certified does not mean that someone will be a great instructor 3 or 4 years down the road if they do not apply themselves in the Learning Process and try to develop. Also, this truly is the sport of sharing! I thank you all for sharing it with me. As to charging or not and Professionalism, what professional in our everyday life do we hire to perform a service for us(plumber, electrician, etc. do we not EXPECT to pay?) If someone wants to teach fly casting for free, that is wonderful and a great part of this sport. The most important part of the professional Fly Casting instructor is to possess the casting and teaching skills to effectively make the behavioral change in a student. Let us all enjoy our sport, help each other and smile a lot. Best Fishes to you all, Mike
[This message has been edited by Mikemv (edited 10 February 2005).]
Hi group,
I thought I'd weight in again after reading all the comments. I had avoided talking about a payment structure because sometimes I charge and other times I don't. It depends on the situation. I'll use this example. After 30 plus years in the telephone business I will from time to time take a contract job to install a communications system for a business and charge the going rate. On the other hand the other day I purchased, donated, and installed a system for a senior center near my home. (I'm getting close to being one myself so maybe my donation will be something I use in the near future.) I do the same with my fly casting lesson.
Regarding whether FFF certified instructors are qualified: Looking back over the years with a lot more than a passing knowledge of the Certification Program I'd have to say there were times in the past when instructors were certified who should not have been. In today's world I see a much tougher test than in some past years. When I took the test I had been an instructor for better than 20 years and considered myself quite competent. I took the test to prove (to myself) I was as good/bad as I though I was. Take care & ...
Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:8bcaf]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:8bcaf]
One time I was fishing on a river that was right up against a road and a guy on a Harley stopped out of pure disgust and gave me some unsolicited but very appreciated and needed instruction. He turned out to be a local guide and I offered to tip him or even buy him a beer, but he replied that even lawyers take on Pro Bono work....
I had the very similar experience years ago at the Golden gate casting club, The gentlemen turned out to be Mel Krieger that was thirty five years ago.. I will always remember what he advised me and to this day I carry that thought with me to the river.Now days I laugh when I think of it..Quote:
Originally Posted by ;831
Many, many years ago, on an isolated tiny trout stream, a gentleman and I had a chance meeting ... he going one way, I the other, through the willows... I took a double take, and had to apologise for laughing. I told him he looked just like someone I'd not had the privilege of ever meeting by the name of Al Campbell. He laughed and said, well now you have. He was guiding a couple people up there, and instantly gathered Cary and me into hs group. He took us to all kinds of waters that were new to us, and we had a ball! Never a charge. Still laugh when I think of following him, at breakneck speed, along the dirt roads up there! Dust rolling in huge clouds, and his silly dog hanging out the window of his truck, ears flapping in the wind. I really miss him.