CCW and YOUR fishing "experiences".

I happen to reside in the MOST RESTRICTIVE ( last to recognize a citizen's RIGHT) gun rights state in the union, ILLinois. Just recently, we have been "allowed" to protect ours and ourselves with the ability to carry concealed weapons. "That being said" the recent forced ( by Supreme Court decision) imposition of this right upon our legislators has caused some of "them" to seek all sorts of incidents/scenarios , TO NO AVAIL, to pose objections to and challenge that decision.
I have applied for and WILL exercise this right, but that is not my main objective. In the last three years, open carry of firearms has been allowed ( with a healthy dose of COMMON SENSE) in our National Parks. I personally have had TWO very near ( underwear changing caliber) bear experiences in Grand Teton and Y'Stone National parks. At both of those incidents I had only my flyrod and a 2nd (NIdon) degree black belt in Judo as my protection. I could have nailed him with an Uchi Mata but that would have required a much closer and TOTALLY uninteresting to me confrontation. I am NOT a
"walk 100 yds from my car" fisherman and thereby tend to wander many miles into possibly dangerous areas where a "meeting" can and has occured. And because it is now perfectly legal , I carry my S&W 44 MAG and a large canister of UDAP not TOTALLY depending on either singularly but as a combo JUST IN CASE.
I have posted on this subject before and ruffled some feathers but since there are new folks herein,I post it again. If/ when you wander into "possible" confrontation territory, what precautions do you excercise ?? ( OR theoretically, if you were in those territories, how would you protect yourself?)


Mark
PS: John, TF, let it run :>)

We don't have griz around here. Well there are some in the North Cascades but I rarely get into their territory. We do have black bear and I will frequent their territory on a regular basis. I have a conceal carry permit but prefer to wear a side arm on my hip in full view. I have nothing to hide. My side arm of choice is usually a stainless .357 magnum with a ported barrel. I like this gun because of the ported barrel it is very loud and I will use it to "scare" blackie away. If a discharge of the weapon doesn't scare him then the "57" has enough snot to drop a black bear. I also like the stainless wheel gun because I can drop it into the mud, rinse it off in the river and start shooting. My second weapon of choice to carry when venturing into the back country is a Kimber 1911.

I've always carried my .357 whenever in the back country. Bears are main threat, but people can get wonky when away from it all as well. I find an openly carried handgun to be a source of comfort to me and a gentle warning to anyone with evil intent.

I like bears, and I hate to kill anything I don't have too, but I'm not going to allow one to damage me in any way. I'm not interested in 'learning' how to avoid confrontations, or how to keep from 'antagonizing' the bear. I walk where I will, fish where it's legal, and keep my eyes open. I've had to fire two warning shots to keep black bears from venturing too close. They have always ran away at that point.

Personal choice here, of course. I know several fishermen that never carry a firearm anywhere.

Buddy

In CA anyone can carry, concealed or open when fishing, unless local ordinances forbid it. That said, I only have a .22, and have never seen a bear or any sign of it. the .22 would not help, in any case.

Also, from what I have read, a charging bear is a tough shot with a pistol, and I would not want to make a near-kill and **** him off.

but I will still probably carry my new pistol for snakes...

Most placed I fish, danger really isn't much of a concern. When in a new area where there may be mountain lions or bears, or sketchy folks, I always have something along. Whether a .22 or .45, something is better than nothing.

Uh....how about bear spray?

Are there laws against openly carried handguns, or is it only concealed? We have one when we travel, but I often wonder if I was driving alone, if it wouldn't be a good idea to just have one up on the dashboard? I'm woefully underinformed, like many people who carry guns, and at least the people with CCW licenses know a little more about them. If I went into the back country I would certainly go armed.

I hope this post doesn't highjack this thread because I think this is an interesting and important discussion. This thread does, however, remind me of a story...

One of my fishing partners is, quite often, carrying a side arm when we fish, which is fine by me. A couple of years ago we met in Montana to fish. We were going to be in definite "bear country". Before our trip I asked him if he would be packin'. He said he would be. I told him that was good, and by the way, I had just gotten a new .22 cal. pistol that I would have with me as well. Of course, his reply was, "What are you going to do with a .22 pistol if we encounter a bear?" My reply...

"Shoot you in the leg!"

Now back to more important discussions!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herefishy

Are there laws against openly carried handguns, or is it only concealed? We have one when we travel, but I often wonder if I was driving alone, if it wouldn't be a good idea to just have one up on the dashboard? I'm woefully underinformed, like many people who carry guns, and at least the people with CCW licenses know a little more about them. If I went into the back country I would certainly go armed.

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Laws vary from state to state. The best thing to do is to investigate the laws in your state regarding open carry and conceal carry. For example it is illegal to have a loaded weapon in your vehicle in Washington unless you have a concealed weapon permit. And even then it is advisable to unload the weapon for safety reasons. Also in Washington if you are legally engaged in the activity of fishing you can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. However, if you do so and approached by a Fish & Game officer or other law enforcement you need to inform them immediatly that you have a concealed firearm. All of this is different depending on which state you are in.

SO FAR all I've need worry about are moose. (That's why we fish where we do season wise. Stay out of bear territory always .... stay out of moose territory in the spring!) Guess I really shouldn't worry anyways ... I think I can still out run Cary!

I carried my .40 cal Glock when I hiked in to Grizzly Lake in YNP last year. My fishing partner had the bear spray. I don't know where the name of that lake originated, but it begs one to be well protected.

With the gun and 2 clips of ammo, mosquito repellant, lunch and water, fly rod and assorted fishing items, that was quite a bit of weight to lug up and down 2 mountain sides at (what?) 7000 feet elevation on a hot early summer day.

Anyone want to be a Sherpa and pack the gun, I'd be more than happy to be their guide into that lake, but next time I'm opting to cut out some pack weight and carry just bear spray.

We don't have griz here in Ontario just black bears and they will (most likely) run from you before you see them. My hat is off to anyone who has the kahoona's to stand their ground, when the largest carnivoure (griz) walking the face of the earth is charging, and squirt it with seasoning.;)

No Grizzlies here either. I have come face to face with black bears and they generally don't want anything to do with humans. If you are going to carry a handgun for bear defense, my only advise is to load it with the heaviest hard-cast bullets available. For grizzly your probably better off with a short barreled shotgun with slugs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

Uh....how about bear spray?

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I'd rather ensure that I win the fight.

I'm not so worried about bears as I am about the 2 legged variety

I can't find a link right now, but I read a study about a year ago that reviewed bear encounter incidents in Montana, Alaska, and Canada and concluded the odds of a happy ending are considerably better with bear spray than with a firearm. Personally, I always carry bear spray (UDAP) in bear country. If I think the risk is high, I also carry my "last resort", a 12 ga. slug gun loaded with copper sabot slugs. To each his own, but I wouldn't bet my life on my handgun skills.

Good fishing,
Arnie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herefishy

I'm not so worried about bears as I am about the 2 legged variety

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Rule #24: Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

I believe I originally stated that I carry both UDAP and a 44 MAG and would not depend singularly on either. Since I have both, and it's legal, I would be foolish not to avail myself of the extra protection. OOOPPPSSS is NOT a viable option if a confrontation occurs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...3/IMGP0212.jpg

Mark

Ya'll need a slow moving fishing buddy. I am not available and will view any invitations with great suspicion.

Thanks for posting this, good discussion. I carried a little .22 auto for a while, but I decided the extra weight wasnt worth it. Virginia has a pretty good CCW law, and I think most people assume everyone is packing, and that leads to a more polite group in the field. I have never felt uncomfortable from any two legged threat. And, of course, we dont have any grizz or lions, and we dont have any poisonous water snakes in this part of Va. My main safety concern is from a dog attack. I am thinking of picking up a small canister of UDAP, Cabelas has the 0.4oz sizes on sale, maybe I will pick up a can. It would probably give me a false sense of security, but it may keep me from having to wear out my fly rod on a dog....

I don't know here to find a good water pistol anymore, but a bottle of household ammonia and a good water gun will take care of most dogs, probably most humans too.

Needless to add, I VERY much appreciate the input on this topic. Uncle Jess, I wish I had said that ( the "invitation" one, :>). I realize this is a "sensative" topic for WHATEVER reason but how can anyone question a LAWFUL RIGHT to exercise same. I can understand an opposing view on idealogical grounds but the LAW IS CLEAR.
Thanks for letting me spout AGAIN.

Mark

It looks like the majority of those so inclined to respond to this thread are generally in favor of or are already carrying. Maybe it has something to do with the outdoorsman mindset, where many of us are also hunters, target shooters, etc., or maybe it's because those opposed to carrying guns feel outnumbered and choose not to respond. There are many philosophical reasons to carry weapons both in the wilderness and around town, but I'll not go into them as we all already know where we stand. I would like to continue the discussion a little bit on the effectiveness topic however.

• Certainly for human attackers, a handgun can be very effective, provided that it is used correctly, and that it is not inadvertently surrendered to the attacker. For animals, the effectiveness is even less clear.
• For a bear, multiple shots to the torso with a large caliber handgun may not be enough to stop one, not to mention that a bear can seemingly come out of nowhere, and the first thing you see may be a giant paw with claws swiping at your head. I've heard that bears have extremely sensitive noses (this seems obvious) and that pepper spray can incapacitate one (this is not so obvious, and I am somewhat skeptical, considering the consequences of being wrong).
• For mountain lions, you likely will never see one until an attack is underway. I have no idea whether pepper spray would be effective for one of these or not, but if the big cats are like the household ones, I wouldn't expect anything but a very well-placed bullet to stop a cougar.
• For wolves, coyotes, and stray dogs, I don't think you'll have a problem unless you either run into a pack, or meet one that is rabid. Fending off a pack of dogs with a handgun has its obvious limitations, though pepper spray may be effective.
• For alligators, I don't expect pepper spray or a handgun to be very effective.
• For snakes, a gun will kill one, but once you've identified the snake, they're easy to avoid. If you've already been bitten, killing the snake will not help you.
• I'm sure there are other hazards in North America, and there certainly are many for those readers on the other continents.

So if it makes you feel safer or you just want an excuse to carry a firearm, and it's legal, then by all means do so. Likewise for the bear spray. Just remember that neither is a panacea, and there are dangers with venturing into the wilderness, as there are with any other activity. I tend to agree with the OP that both a handgun and pepper spray make a good combination, provided they are both quickly accessible. However, neither is as effective as being aware of your surroundings and detecting dangerous critters before they get too close. The problem is that fishing is just so distracting...

Waskeyc: Other than your "excuse" comment , I totally agree. Even in the case of that "excuse",however, if the person is qualified by all legal standards and requirements YOU cannot question his/her/their motivation. The reason I isolate your choice of "excuse" is that it is VERY telling. NO responsible firearm owner/carrier needs an "excuse" to own or carry. We all/most have an indisputable REASON , "PERIOD" ( where have you heard that before?)

Mark


Mark

Very well, I will concede the "excuse" terminology. I didn't intend for that word to carry so much weight. You'll notice that my opening paragraph did use the word "reasons". A better read would be to remove the words "an excuse" from the first sentence of the last paragraph.

Actually, a .22 can be very effective when encountering a bear. Simply turn, shoot your partner in the knee, and run like hell. Works for me...

This is an interesting subject.

I do (5" .45 LC and a .22 derringer) pack/carry when fishing Montana and my son carries his government approved/furnished Bear Spray depending on where we are fishing.

He has worked in the Glacier National Park for better than 15 years running wetland field studies and never once has he or his team had to use the bear spray that I'm aware of.

The LC hasn't been used but the derringer has many times to disperse with snakes. Having been bit three times (Pacific Red once and Diamondbacks twice) I think I'm sometimes a snake attractor and I dispatch
them quickly with bird shot.

Wherever I am "allowed" by law to exercise my rights, I do. Here are a few observations I have accumulated and considered:

When I lived in interior Alaska, I realized that in MOST circumstances, the brush was so thick along the streams that I would never see a bear coming until it was too late. A six inch stainless .44 Mag got heavy by the end of the day, but I still carried it. The only "defense" which made good sense, would be to have a non-fishing bear-watch person armed with a fairly heavy rifle and the ability to use it. Oh well, still carried the revolver and was never sorry I did, even though I had no experience where I "needed" it.

I lived in the desert southwest for 8 years, and have a great affinity for rattlesnakes. I have spent a LOT of time studying and photographing them. I have never once had the need to shoot a snake. As WaskeyC pointed out, the snake you DON'T see is the only one which will bite you, and you can't shoot what you can't see. In the years I lived in the southeast, I had many encounters with Water Mocasins. Again, never needed to shoot one. In my considerable experience all over the country and many other parts of the world, shooting a snake is completely un-needed. If a venomous snake needs to be killed around the house or yard, or poses a danger to children or pets, a shovel is a far more effective tool for the job.

I have only been threatened by dogs while cycling, not yet while fishing. Yes, I do often carry while on my bike, although usually in my camelback, not immediately accessible. I have however pepper sprayed quite a few dogs. I keep a small can velcro-d to my top tube. At the moment the dog's Idiot owner lets it set foot on the road, chasing me where I have the legal right to be, I have no hesitation whatever giving it a face full of OC. In Alabama I once had a dog "owner" threaten to shoot me for doing it, and twice had the county sheriff called. All three times I was of course right. I worry about dogs a lot more than I worry about bears.

Staying on topic of fishing, my life experiences lead me to believe I am at a FAR greater risk of encountering dangerous human animals than dangerous non-human animals which would threaten a situation which could end very poorly. Again, and I thank God every day, I have not had a situation in my private life where I NEEDED what I was carrying. I frequently launch and recover my kayak in the dark, in a few places near urban areas which are not exactly "friendly"...

When seconds count, help is only minutes away.

I agree with Marco 100%

Yes the two legged predators are the worst. Out here some meth heads like to travel along rivers and especially boat ramps, looking for unattended vehicles to break into. Even if your lucky enough to have a cell signal, help could be 30 minutes or more away.

Gents,
AS you ( CCW compliant folks) probably ( should) know, two legged predators can be fired upon ONLY and ONLY if their act/ behavior puts YOUR life in imminent danger. Breaking into your pick-up, wrecking windows and stealing a million bucks worth of stuff is NOT even remotely close to a probable cause for even FIRING your weapon in the direction of the perp. The law and YOUR responsibilities are VERY CLEAR and if you're not familiar with same, become familiar, it may save you much pain legal, financial and otherwise.

Mark

Marco, What holds true in one state does not necessarily hold true in another. In the state of Georgia, if a juror disagrees with a law, even though the defendant may have broken the law, the juror is not bound by law to find the defendant guilty. Also, I you happen to encounter someone breaking into your vehicle, the perp would likely have a tools, which could easily be convert to a weapon, in his or her hand. Should they approach you, in many states, you would be justified to fire.

I do not encourage shooting anyone when it can be avoided, a person's life is worth more than "stuff." I personally do not go armed as a rule. You are in a part of the country that has adopted some anti-gun laws from what I have heard, while much of the country has done otherwise.

I went out shooting pictures this morning. Part of the equipment I carry when taking pictures is a .357 magnum. I carry it on my side in plain view. I was shooting at a spot on the Sauk River which is also a favorite run of mine to fish. It is off an old logging road a few miles from the highway. An old beat up pickup pulled in with 2 guys in it that appeared to me to be of somewhat questionable character. They got out of their beater pickup and started down to the river toward where I was setup taking pictures. One got as close to me as perhaps twenty feet. I turned in a fashion that displayed the revolver on my hip to him and said good morning. He stopped and said hello, then turned around and went back to where the other was standing, some 50 feet away. I stood facing them and not taking my eyes off of either. After a few minutes they both went back to their pickup and left with no further interaction. I am not sure if they had bad intentions but I when I am out shooting pictures I can carry over $8000.00 worth of equipment with me and just as well be left alone by these people as not. I also packed up and moved to another location. I didn't need them planning on how to relieve me of my gear and returning. Sometimes just the presence of a weapon can be a deterrent.

That's the kind of deterrent I was thinking of when I asked about the legality of "unconcealed" carry. Gosh, this world is getting to be a scary place when you can't even go out to take some pictures without "packing".

Well,
As the Brits et al may say, " we've made a meal out of this". Thanks for all the replies and opinions on the topic.


Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Gents,
AS you ( CCW compliant folks) probably ( should) know, two legged predators can be fired upon ONLY and ONLY if their act/ behavior puts YOUR life in imminent danger. Breaking into your pick-up, wrecking windows and stealing a million bucks worth of stuff is NOT even remotely close to a probable cause for even FIRING your weapon in the direction of the perp. The law and YOUR responsibilities are VERY CLEAR and if you're not familiar with same, become familiar, it may save you much pain legal, financial and otherwise.

Mark

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absolutely correct. Very few are willing to understand the moment-by-moment dynamics of a use-of-force confrontation. There is case law going back at least to the 1970s (that I know of, probably much further back) showing the instantly variable nature of threat of death / grave bodily harm. There is a current situation going on fairly close to me which illustrates it well--- in a nutshell-
- recently released criminal got a firearm and broke into a remote home with two victims inside
- confrontation ensued, sub-human sh**bag shot one victim 3 times
- other victim managed to disarm the sh**bag
- victim shot and killed the sh**bag (details not 100% clear in media reports)
- victim is now charged with murder, for shooting the sh**bag with the weapon he brought to the fight, because the sh**bag was apparently not an imminent threat to life at the moment he was shot, even though he had already shot one of the victims 3 times.

it sucks, but that's the world in which we live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jszymczyk

absolutely correct. Very few are willing to understand the moment-by-moment dynamics of a use-of-force confrontation. There is case law going back at least to the 1970s (that I know of, probably much further back) showing the instantly variable nature of threat of death / grave bodily harm. There is a current situation going on fairly close to me which illustrates it well--- in a nutshell-
- recently released criminal got a firearm and broke into a remote home with two victims inside
- confrontation ensued, sub-human sh**bag shot one victim 3 times
- other victim managed to disarm the sh**bag
- victim shot and killed the sh**bag (details not 100% clear in media reports)
- victim is now charged with murder, for shooting the sh**bag with the weapon he brought to the fight, because the sh**bag was apparently not an imminent threat to life at the moment he was shot, even though he had already shot one of the victims 3 times.

it sucks, but that's the world in which we live.

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Another true story; two men come to man's house. Men confront resident on his front porch. Resident has young daughter inside. Resident feels threatened and also is concerned for daughter's safety. Resident shoots both men in the head, killing one and severely injuring the other leaving him permanently disabled with a brain injury. The men shot were both unarmed. Resident is charged with murder and assault. Resident is acquitted by jury. There is more to this story. All involved had history but the bottom line is man shot two unarmed men and walked.

Having spent significant time around big bears... and little bears... having shot a significant number of black, brown, and grizzly bears... having played bear guard for photography safaris in the land of Timothy Treadwell... having watched bear spray used on two bears and fail to save either bears' life... Having had several bears die literally touching me... I am just egotistical enough to think I have a little better feel than most about bear safety...

Bear spray is a sorry excuse for protection. It cannot be used in many situations and the most likely scenario of coming upon a bear unaware is when the wind does not favor the bear... and also makes bear spray a non-starter. The two times I have used it or seen it used the bear did not survive the ordeal because he did not go away after a serious drenching. I have less then no faith in bear spray and believe the false sense of security it gives is a serious danger.

The poster commenting on the "study" done by Stephen Herrero is a pathetic joke. Herrero had an agenda before he was born and long before he had the first clue about bears. Peer review of his "study" was harsh... actually, harsh is a kind way of putting it. Little he has written is worth wasting a moments thought on.

Often I fish Kodiak Island streams ( I guided there for years) without a handgun and have bumped into many, many bears while doing so. A little basic knowledge about bears will save you a bunch of fear and anxiety. There are times when you need to pack up and go... NOW!!! But those incidents are pretty obvious. If you make noise the bears will hear you and move out ahead of your advance, usually without you even knowing they were there.

This is the core from a bullet, probably a 357 Magnum, found on the skull of a Kodiak brown bear my son shot this past spring.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...gandbullet.jpg

The bone fragment came form the nuchal crest, where the bullet probably hit first. The jacket was shed and the core slipped forward in the muscle, between skull and hide.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...bulletbutt.jpg

I sent him to the beach alone and he did fine...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...arandriley.jpg

He was not carrying a handgun, though. ;)

A good friend and well-known fishing guide in Soldotna was walking right outside his door when he was attacked by a huge brown bear. He happened to be carrying a very large handgun and managed to shoot and kill the attacking bear with a single shot. It skidded right past him as it expired. I hate to think what would have been the story if he had just a can of bear spray.

Please do not get the idea I am fearless around bears... Some bears scare me spitless, but they are the kind of bear that is not likely to mess with me, too. The most common problem bear is a hungry, recently disenfranchised boar unable to understand why Mom won't let him hang around anymore. They are easily intimidated and will usually back down quickly.

very good points Hap