College advice

College will be coming up before i know it and im not entirely set on my major yet. I would like to major in something with wildlife. Either majoring as some sort of wildlife biologist or something for conservation of streams im not totally sure whats out there. I know im being pretty vague, but is there anyone out there in the profession that has some advice for me or what universities i should be looking into. Any advice at all can really help me.

-Zac

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The way to a flyfisherman's heart is through his fly

To each his own of course, but I will be majoring in both environmental science and fisheries biology at Mansfield University.

Don

Don and Zac;

Good luck picking a major. Let me give you both and anyone else that is getting ready to go to college a tiny bit of advice.

Take the blinders off.

My dad told me when I went off to college to "get the education I wanted, now what someone else told me to take".

So when I say take the blinders off I mean look at ever course that is offered. Sure get your major and a minor but do not stay inside the lines the college draws for you. There is no reason to pass up the opportunity to get "your education" If you decide on something in the wildlife area, then get out of the box and take classes that will round you out. I loved college and everything about it. I made it fun by spreading my education into many different fields. I changed major 3 different times. So my young friends, listen to your advisors, but it is your education and your money, get the most for it.

I will bet most of us would agree the college years were special times for us.

Make the most of this time, you will make friends that will remain with you through life.

I envy you both.

Harold

You could apply to Cornell University and be a Natural Resources Major.

I'm at Cornell now and really love it here. I am a Natty Reeser and would like to be a wildlife or fisheries biologist. There are a lot of requirements to get out of the way just like most places (bio, chem, etc), but I'm really liking classes such as Water Resources Management and Fish Ecology this semester. I'm planning on taking stream ecology next time it is offered. There are classes from maple syrup production and woodlot management to fisheries, wildlife, etc. There is the research/management part of NTRES, which is where I am. There is also policy and ethics.

One great thing about Cornell is that it's big, but it is spaced out...not really urban. There is a broad range of courses that you could take, especially great if you change majors. The physical education courses are great. I took Intro to Freshwater Angling first semester (even though I wasn't a beginner, I just wanted to fish for college credit!). I took Fly tying/Fly fishing second semester. This year I took Introduction to Handguns and that was also a great course. You can find about anything you would want. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

BTW, the Natural Resources Professors are the greatest professors that I have met. They are all fun people and really get you out into the field. There is also a LOT of research opportunities to gain experience.

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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."

JC I was fishing, where else?

Lots of colleges out there with good fisheries and wildlife programs. Email me and we can discuss it in some more depth. I would also recommend calling your local fish and game office and asking some of their bios about their careers, where they went to school, what they would and would not do differently...

Making a career out of something you love can be a good thing, but it can also ruin it for you. I pretty much gave up hunting, started THINKING too much about it. REfused to go into fisheries work so I could keep fishing and not worry about things too much. Worked so far.

Your course of study should be in a field that interests you. That being said, it won't hurt to include a couple of practical courses to your curriculum vitae in case you have trouble finding employment in your field. Take Accounting 1 and 2 and enough English Lit courses to learn how to write. These courses will increase your employment chances outside your chosen field.

Zac,
I was surprised to see that 2 respondants to your questions were from around here, Cornell and Mansfield, both of which are within 35 miles of Elmira. Going a little further there are Cobelskill and of course Penn State.

I'm more familiar with Cornell since Fall Creek forms a beautiful gorge that divides the campus. Its a trout and Atlantic Salmon spawning stream. While fishing there,I met a Co-ed doing water studies below the falls. She was very pleasant and sooo beautiful. Seldom do I disagree with Harold but I'd recommend your donning your blinders before entering the area. I fear that you may take your mind off your studies... if any more nymphs of that species be there!

Ol' Bill

Zac,

Congrats on your futur endeavour. You're looking at a fine branch of the "natural resource" sciences.

A few questions ...
Why specifically wildlife bio or streams conservation ??
Just streams, ... or habitat in general?

I also agree fully with Harold. The "science" aspect of an "education" is the core of knowledge base (or the foundation as you would). Strangely, after I finished in forest resource management (in Canada), what was lacking was Project Managament, Communications, Technical Writing, Humain Resources Mgmnt.

I took a bit of extra time to do my studies and never regretted it. Came away with 3 majors and several minors. Helps alot.

In terms of "futur employability", we look for abilities in communication, problem solving, team work and project management. Systems approches to analysing situations is important too. SO these are all areas of interest you could look at "cultivating" during your studies.

On some of the managament counsels I'm on, there is too much "my turf" "your turf" infighting. The biologists want to manage the wildlife and habitat, but we foresters have "a bit of impact on the forest cover" http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

I envy you, ... you're about to embark on a wonderful adventure. Choose a field that inspires passion in your soul. I did and I love my work.

ps: Check your e-mail

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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
[url=http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/:082d5]http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/[/url:082d5]


[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 12 March 2005).]

Bass Angler,

Don't forget to take into account the fishing opportunities in the area near where you go to college.

One thing I like about Cornell is that it's on the Finger Lakes on NY, where you can have anything from some very nice smallmouths and largemouths to pike, landlocked salmon (big ones) and lake run trout. Good runs of salmon and browns come up the tribs in the fall, and the rainbow run is in the spring. The Susquehanna isn't far, and if you want to drive a little farther you can have steelhead and pacific salmon out of Ontario.

It's also not far from the Catskills where I live, so there are really lots of fishing opportunities.

I'm starting up a fishing club as I type this...let me know when you decide where you want to go, and if you want more info let me know as well. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."

all i have to say is that you have to be amazingly committed right now to pick your major and stick to it. i am heading off this coming september and i cant even decide on a college, let alone a major. there are so many factors that go into it, all of which can affect your major. you also may have to make a sacrifice or two as well. for example, i think i may want to study coastal and marine policy and management at the University of Rhode Island. Now this program is very strong at URI, but i also want to study business at the same time. The problem is that URI doesn't have a strong business department. If i choose to go to a different college, i could study in a great business program, but lose the advantage of a strong enviromental program. my advice to you is to explore your options and give yourself the most time possible to look into specifics at different colleges.

1. Colorado State: good wildlife/forestry programs
2. Texas Tech University: excellent range management programs

Both of these programs will put you in places that are senic and where there are plenty of fish and flyfishing is the norm. Been associated with both of these and they are both winners.

So far no one has mentioned your own state Indiana Univ--Purdue and Butler in Indy. Purdue has a big fishing club. Our ffishing club will also have a both near theirs at a sports vacation show and I will get some information on thier thoughts and send you a email.

My daughter went to Butler and graduated with a degree in environmental science. For years she had charge of the environment at a nuke plant,divers and testing fish in Lake Mich for PCB. She now is a vp for the large electrical power co. Travels all over the world including countrys like New Zealand where she had a week of ffishing.

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Bill

Take a serious look at Humboldt Sate University in Arcata, California. It has an excellent program for Natural Resources, one of the best in the country. Check it out, it's one of the nicest places in the world to live and since it is a small university you get to work more closely with your professors than you would at a larger university. The fishing isn't too shabby, either, with some of the best steelhead and trout rivers e.g. the Smith, Trinity, Klamath, and Sacramento, all within a 30 minute to 6 hour drive.

Keep in mind that empolyers are looking for people with good computer, math (including statistics), and communication skills. When you are choosing classes - you will have some latitude on what to take - take some electives that include computer skills, statistics, and technical writing. The more committed you are to improving your skills in college the better chance you will have in the workplace. Competition is getting fierce and you will need to have the edge of others if you want a chance at the best opportunities.

[This message has been edited by ktokj (edited 12 March 2005).]

As a former college biology professor and a professional ecologist with the federal government, I would like to offer a few thoughts.

First, the competition for jobs in field biology is, and always has been really tough. It is not likely to change. This means you will be competing for jobs in a small job market and against many people, some who have advanced degrees.

Second, strongly consider why you want to go into this area. Most people my age, I am 52, wanted to go into biology because we wanted jobs that would keep us outside, wanted to "save the earth", or grew up hunting and fishing and got interested in science through our outdoor activities. Consider that there are other ways to ensure the future of fish and wildlife besides being a biologist. I am not trying to talk you out of anything but as others have suggested, think long term.

If you decide to pursue a career in biology look at a wide selection of schools and programs. There are so many choices these days that didn't exist when I was an undergrad. For example, conservation biology is a big field now and there weren't programs in this when I was an undergrad.

Look for a school that has a strong undergrad research component to its cirriculum. Then, get involved in a research project. It doesn't have to be Nobel Prize type research but more and more it is becoming important to engage in research. This was not the case when I was an undergrad. If possible, find a major professor who will help you publish your undergrad research.

Learn to write! This is the one of the most important skills you can get from your college eductaion . Look for a school and a program that require writing in all classes, not just the standard English classes. Trust me on this one, I hire biologists, engineers, hydrologists, archaeologists, ecologists and a primary skill I look for is the ability to write.

Learn to speak in public. Second only to writing skills is the ability to communicate orally. Sooner or later on any job you may obtain you are going to have to make presentations. Learn to do it early.

Find the most rigorous program you can. Don't settle for an undergrad science degree that does not require at least two years of chemistry, a year of physics, a year of calculus, and statistics courses. If you are not strong in any of these areas, plan to bust your butt to get through them. There are many programs that do not offer a rigorous, challenging and broad based curriculum. Find an undergrad program that prepares you for graduate school, even if you think at this point you won't be going to grad school.

If possible, take courses in political science, sociology, philosophy, public policy, and a variety of liberal arts courses. Put as much time and effort into these classes as you do your biology classes. Why?

Because a great many people who find jobs in biology find themselves dealing with the public on a variety of issues. In fact, many of my friends from college and grad school, me included, are in positions where we deal with the people aspects of field biology as much as we do with the science of biology, ecology, fisheries, etc. This is especially true if you move up the ladder in your career.

Take a variety of biology courses. Most curriculums usually don't let you specialize as an undergrad anyway but don't try. Get a well rounded education in your major, it will serve you well.

Pay attention to the idea of learning concepts not just content. I had way too many undergrad biology majors who could regurgitate every step in photosynthesis but couldn't answer the simple question, "What is the end product of the process." They knew the content but had no clue as to the concept.

Part of your education should be to develop critical thinking skills and know how to apply them. Find a program that stesses this aspect of learning. Many undergrads, and grad students too for that matter, know the content and even the concepts but can't apply them to real life situations. The theories you learn in college need to be applied in the real world, that is what education is all about.

Find someone in the field you are interested in, e.g. fisheries biology, and talk to that person about your interests. They can often give you some great insights and provide info on what today's jobs require. For example, GIS is a huge tool in biology these days, didn't exist when I was an undergrad, so consider the importance of technology in your program.

Finally, be absolutely realistic about the importance of money in the long term. Realize that most jobs in wildlife and fisheries biology are not going to pay large sums of money. At age 18 this may not sound like a big deal but some day you may have a family, etc. and money takes on a new importance. And, as I mentioned previously, many of the good paying jobs will keep you at a desk not in the field.

Find a good school, find a good advisor, work hard and have fun. I have never regretted becoming a biologist but it has been hard work.

I wish you much success in your academic endeavors.

Don,

I live about 10 miles from Mansfield University. I got my B.S. in Environmental Science with a minor in Chemisty from there. The fisheries is a very good program. The classes are on the small size so you get lots of chances to interact with the Profs. Take them!!

Good luck,

Pete

P.S. If you want to go fishing while you are up here let me know. We have very good bass fishing and some of the best trout fishing in the state.

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[url=http://blacklabfliesandsupplies.com:f85d7]http://blacklabfliesandsupplies.com[/url:f85d7]


[This message has been edited by bassflyrodder (edited 13 March 2005).]

Zac,

I guess RNelson hit it right on the head... Especially the part about ...

Quote:

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I am not trying to talk you out of anything but as others have suggested, think long term.

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We all chose our fields for different reasons. I'm a forester so I (IMHO) have the best of all worlds, touching biology, ecology, industry, economics,...

If you love the outdoors and want to pursue a field outdoors, one last thought, ... will WORKING there take away from you passion for it. I mean, you obviously love say flyfishing, but would you Guide ?? I mean, ... every day, all year, rain, sleet and snow ??

If your answer is still yes, think some more. (I'm not trying to turn you off, just points to ponder http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif ). try to find someone who works in the field to chat up, follow around for a while. Run the gambit too, ... see the technicians, the managers, upper management and research gangs.

Last thought (and RN touched on it), one of the "deceptions" of natural resource managers run into is the "office". Young foresters here are often suprised how fast they end up on boards, in meetings, management counsels and not in the field. This has become a part of the job that I like.

As RN said, learn to communicate. First step in good communcation skills is to learn to listen.


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
[url=http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/:ed3d3]http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/[/url:ed3d3]

As a biology undergrad (not wildlife management), and like the poster above said, I found out the hard way competition for biological jobs is tough (and low-paying).

I got a masters in environmental engineering, and while the pay is a little better, there seems to be much more opportunites out there. It's not exactly what you said you wanted to do (but then again... I was a freshman pre-med student... for about 1 semester), but it is socially rewarding. for example, I'm working on the design for remediation on the largest superfund site in the US, have seen figures I made on TV, and get to see first hand the cleanup of smaller rivers/streams.

If this interests you, check into universities that have environmental engineering specific majors (look in the civil engineering departments). There is a difference between environmental science and environmental engineering.

I at one time was passionate about getting a job in natural resources management. Then I sat down and took a look at my qualifications against those of most of the people I would be graduating with. It didn't look good for me. So, I have begun down a different path. I am studying Geographic Information Systems. I still hope to work supporting natural resources conservation, but because of the high demand in GIS and relatively few GIS graduates, things are looking up for me in the natural resources area.

I guess my points are:
1. be honest and realistic with yourself about your chances for employment in your chosen area. This is not to say give up if it doesn't look good for you, it just means you'll have an idea of how much effort you'll have to put into finding the opportunity you want. If you haven't begun college yet, you have huge opportunities to improve your qualifications: volunteer, volunteer, volunteer! Any opportunity you can find to get experience, take advantage of (experience can be more valuable than pay).

2. find a niche for yourself. It sounds like you've got a rough idea of what type of work you want to do. Find out specific jobs that are out there and try to get volunteer opportunities in them. This also means if a door closes on you, open a new one. There are many more aspects to fishery management and water resources management than the water itself. This could include soil sciences, forestry, GIS, etc.

3. This is the most important one: never give up. Sounds simple, but is not so easy in practice.

I wish you the best on your endeavors in this area. Competition is tight, so try to get as much experience as you can as early as you can.

Cheers,
Tom

Tom,

Nice comments, ... Here's a little question you could probably answer for me.

In the use of IT or other tools, would you say that its easier to train a forester in GIS or teach forestry to a GIS person ??

(Bit of a debate going on here at the office, ... looking for summer students).


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
[url=http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/:5efee]http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/[/url:5efee]

I have a 2 questions:
Who's paying?
Do you have to pay them back?

I can get back to you with my ideas with those questions answered.



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[url=http://dryfly.argodesignstudio.com:7c7fd]http://dryfly.argodesignstudio.com[/url:7c7fd]

Wow i got a great amount of information way more than i thought i would. All of it invaluable. For the ones that have posted do you have any regrets with the path you chose? Im sure everyone does. Do you enjoy the career you chose and what whould you do differently? Also does the DNR or similar agencies offer internships for highschool students?

Thanks again for all the insight i have recieved.
-Zac

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The way to a flyfisherman's heart is through his fly

Bass Angler,

I am not very far along my path, but so far there are no real regrets (except for that I don't like organic chemistry http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif).

I've been told here and there that if I get a degree from Cornell that I am almost assured a job, as long as I have some experience to back it up (now the State's hiring problems complicates things a bit, but it's competition against others like me which determines getting hired or not). I may not be guaranteed a job, but it does make a difference. Many people choose an "easy college"...but I'm glad you do not intend to do that. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

New York's DEC would hire somebody with a Cornell Degree and experience over many other colleges, I'm not sure what it is in your state, but I'm sure it is like that out there as well.

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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."

Follow your heart and dreams, be aware that there are many fields of knowledge; even though they may seem not being relevent to your quest, they are connected to each other.

No knowledge gained, is ever wasted! The more information you learn, the wiser your thoughts and ideas will become! There are connections between, all knowledge, look for the threads that connect them, this will give you new understandings of that you have already learned.

The road of life you travel, may or may not take you where you want to go, but along the way you will discover many new ideas, and thoughts. The journey is not about reaching the destination, it is about what happens as you travel along the way.

~Parnelli



[This message has been edited by Steven H. McGarthwaite (edited 14 March 2005).]