From a historical perspective, or perhaps even today, what is the difference between 'Fly Tying' and 'Fly Dressing'? Can you cite a specific historical reference and what's your opinion?
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From a historical perspective, or perhaps even today, what is the difference between 'Fly Tying' and 'Fly Dressing'? Can you cite a specific historical reference and what's your opinion?
IMO, it's the same as the difference between "lift" and "elevator" or "truck" and "lorry". One's primarily used here in the colonies, and the other in Old Blighty.
Or Pattern vs Recipe
The Surrey Flydressers Guild has fly tying classes.
In Darrel Martin's book, The Fly-Fisher's Craft, he quotes from several books. A 1952 edition of John Veniard's Fly Dresser's Guide and from the 1931 book by H.G. McClelland, The Trout Fly Dresser's Cabinet of Devices.
Just my input, when you consider just how beautiful those Atlantic Salmon flies are and how long it takes to 'dress' one, I can easily see why they would call it flydressers back then. A total work of art.
Larry ---sagefisher---
If you go to http://www.flydressersguild.org/Pages/Flydresser.aspx which is or was the home page for the Flydessers Guild, there is a link to download a copy of their Autumn 2005 magazine, the Flydresser. Starting on page 42, there is a great article by Paul Little called: "What is fly tying". Download it and read it. Very interesting.
Larry ---sagefisher---
Am I to understand that you consider a 'Pattern' and a 'Recipe' as the same?
*****Sage,
"The Surrey Flydressers Guild has fly tying classes.
In Darrel Martin's book, The Fly-Fisher's Craft, he quotes from several books. A 1952 edition of John Veniard's Fly Dresser's Guide and from the 1931 book by H.G. McClelland, The Trout Fly Dresser's Cabinet of Devices.
Just my input, when you consider just how beautiful those Atlantic Salmon flies are and how long it takes to 'dress' one, I can easily see why they would call it flydressers back then. A total work of art."
Thanks for that and the link. By the way, Theodore Gordon also notes a difference between 'Tying and Dressing' and that was in one of his 'Notes & Letters' back in 1910-15. I'll have to look it up.
Allan
.....
Allan,
If you have that book, The Complete Fly Fisherman- Notes and Letters by Theodore Gordon, it would be interesting to see what he had to say. I see you can still buy the book but it is a bit pricey.
Larry ---sagefisher---
This is something I'm very conscious off when writing. My natural inclination is to write in English. Therefore to use "dressing". However, some think this pretentious, also if I used English terms across the board many would simply not understand. The English word for "leader" is "cast". Of course to differentiate between a cast and the action of casting is by context. Something which seems to be out of fashion. This may also explain the miss spelling of vice. For these reasons I don't use "fly dressing" , despite feeling that I should.
Having looked up the etymology of of the word "Dress" I came up with this
Origin:
1275?1325; Middle English dressen < Anglo-French dresser, dresc(i)er, to arrange, prepare, Old French drecier < Vulgar Latin *dīrēctiāre, derivative of Latin dīrēctus direct; noun use of v. in sense ?attire? from circa 1600(1)
The clue here is in the word "attire". To don attire is to dress. Is a fly not a hook (or other mount) attired with various materials to the purpose of attracting fish (or fishermen)? If so then the materials are the dressing, the fly is dressed, and the act of putting the materials on the hook is dressing. This also fits with definition 11.
"to trim; ornament; adorn: to dress a store window; to dress a Christmas tree."
Looking up "tie" came up with a different result.
Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English te ( i ) gh cord, rope, Old English tēagh, tēgh, cognate with Old Norse taug rope; (v.) Middle English tien, Old English tīgan, derivative of the noun; compare Old Norse teygja to draw. See tug, tow1 (2)
There is here no reference to thread, it is specifically larger ropes and cords.
Also,
tie [tahy] verb, tied, ty?ing, noun
verb (used with object) 1. to bind, fasten, or attach with a cord, string, or the like, drawn together and knotted: to tie a tin can on a dog's tail.
2. to draw together the parts of with a knotted string or the like: to tie a bundle tight.
3. to fasten by tightening and knotting the string or strings of: to tie one's shoes.
4. to draw or fasten together into a knot, as a cord: to tie one's shoelace.
5. to form by looping and interlacing, as a knot or bow.
6. to fasten, join, or connect in any way.
7. Angling. to design and make (an artificial fly).
8. to bind or join closely or firmly: Great affection tied them.
9. Informal. to unite in marriage.
10. to confine, restrict, or limit: The weather tied him to the house.
11. to bind or oblige, as to do something.
12. to make the same score as; equal in a contest.
13. Music. to connect (notes) by a tie. (2)
Notice that even here the modern use of "tie" as in fly tying has crept in at No.7. There are though, several references to "knot" and "knotting". The only knots I have come across in fly dressing are the ones used in certain types of woven flies, and Darrell Martin's micro cased caddis where a length of wire is knotted then wound along the hook shank. I know someone will have just said, "What about the whip finish?" Well the clue here is in the name. The Whip finish is a whipping not a knot. Someone else trying to be cleaver will have said "Ha then, there is the half hitch". Again a hitch is a hitch, it isn't a knot.
From looking at this it seems what we are doing is far better described as "fly dressing" than "fly tying". Despite this I do not expect anyone will change their terminology.
References:
(1) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dressing
(2) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Tie?s=t
Cheers,
A.
and then we have salad dressing!!!!!??? : )
Alan,
Thanks for that very detailed explanation. Now allow me to throw something else into the mix. I've been attempting to carefully reread the Notes & Letters of Theodore Gordon for about a month and taking my own notes of his Notes. I'm pretty sure that in one correspondence, I think with Skues, he describes how he differentiated the difference, but then throughout his Ns & Ls, he seems to use those words interchangeably. I haven't been able to find the specific Note or Letter though.
However, I seem to think that Gordon wrote that, through his readings of Kelson, Francis, Halford, Skues and other almost entirely British fly tying/fishing authors, 'fly dressing' meant 'to create a fly by hand and without the use of a vise' (okay Alan, a vice)? Maybe he was thinking along the line of a particular type of fly specifically a full dressed Atlantic Salmon fly (that's not a quote, just my italics).
I guess now I'm going to have to reread a lot of the book and find the passage in which Gordon talks about this.
Allan
Though fly dressing without a vice has only in recent years gone out of use for commercial flies (I believe Rogan's of Donegal were the last firm to stop tying in hand, about 20 years ago) fly tying vices date back to, at least, the late 1700s. As far as I can ascertain that is before the term fly tying came into use. Fly dressing was used for the items produced in those earliest vices. The distinction between dressing in hand or tying in a vice may be useful terminology to use, it would need to be defined as such at the outset. It isn't a commonly held distinction.
Language changes, some of it is an advancement some of it isn't. No one is going to change their usage because of this debate. For me I was "brought up" with the term "Fly Dressing", what gets me about it (and it is the only thing) is that some people seem to think I'm trying to make something of that I am not, and voice strong opinions to that effect. There are many words that I take as commonplace from my childhood which people seem not to understand today. A small passageway between buildings has always been a "ginnel" to me. Then again I was brought up in Lancashire where the accent and dialect are almost another language.
In the end, as I often say "Thy's all gotta learn t' talk proper, like wot a does"!
Cheers,
A.
Alan,
Yes, language is interesting. I still need to go back into the book and see what Gordon specifically was talking about. In the meantime allow me to offer my own, and I'll fully admit this my own distinction based on an 'artistic license' I give to those 1,000% and more creative people who spend their hours and days creating full dress Atlantic Salmon masterpieces.
'Dressing' is the act of: a)blending multi colors of numerous natural, and perhaps some synthetic materials, b)applying/attaching those materials to a hook with thread using hand and finger dexterity to create a fly that is beautiful to look at with the human eye, functions as a fly insofar as fish catching if desired, is basically a work of art. It may also but not necessarily involve the actual manufacture of a specific design of hook.
'Tying' is the act of preparing flies most specifically for fishing. This means there may be little more than a tuft of fur on a hook or it may mean a fly that is the full 'enchalada'. In other words: 'All Dressing is Tying, but not all Tying is Dressing'.
I sincerely hope I haven't offended any of the great contemporary 'fly dressing masters' or ones of years past. Also, I wonder if the above distinction makes sense to anyone?
I still need to find what Gordon wrote and hope to report it when I do.
Allan
However...were are not dressing flys, we are dressing hooks. So should it be "hook dressing" ?