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overlining
After I finished my 8 wt. I anxiously bought an 8 line and was set. So I'd hoped. When I showed the rod to a fellow at a fly shop for his apprasial of the rod, he used several lines on it and determined the best performance was a 10 line. Had I waited I would have bought a 10- wt. line from him, but I guess I was a bit greedy. Last week I found a discounted 10 forward weight line and am putting it onto the reel. I don't have any problems doing so. However, my 6 wt. rod has floating, forward weight line in dire need of replacement. My easy answer was to simply install the 8 wt. line on the 6 wt. rod. What are the expected minuses or problems I can expect from doing so? This is a St. Croix Pro Grafite that should be rated fairly close to its intentions, where as the blank was advertised as an 8, which the shop admitted might be conservative. I'll await your answers. JGW
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I've been curious about the overlining/underlining thing in the past. Here's my two cents.
First, you probably know that here are standards for determining the weight of a line. It's determined by how much the first 30 feet or so of the line weighs. The Cortland line website has some good information on this and has a table describing how much a 3-weight line is suppposed to weigh, how much a 4-weight line weighs and so.
The way I've come to think about the overlining thing is that rods are designed to cast "best" with a certain amount of weight in the "air". If you put a 7-weight line on a 6-weight rod, you reach that point with less line in the air, so-to-speak. If you put an 8-weight line on a 6 weight rod, you reach that point with even less line.
The conclusion is that when overlined, a rod loads better on short casts, and breaks-down a bit on longer casts. The converse could also be true, a rod might perform better when casting at distance when it is underlined.
All that being said, the weight designation is up to the manufacturer -- so the answer partly depends on the rod and how the manufacter decides what weight line is best. In this case, I guess that would be the maker of the blank.
I decided not to fool around with overlining and underlining rods myself -- partly because I think the manufacturer weight designation is probably the right choice under most common fishing conditions.
After all that, I guess I should have just said you gotta try it and see. I doubt it will hurt the rod.
[This message has been edited by BigFlatBrook (edited 17 April 2005).]
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Like BFB said, it won't hurt the rod. Heck, you're running around with the rod trying to hook and play the largest danded fish in the water anyway. Whats a few grains of weight more in a line?
Like JC commenting on face-wind helping someone realize the load on the backcast better, I think, maybe to a certain extent, over-lineing can do the same.....make it easier to feel the rod load.
When useing shooting heads it is almost necessary to up-line. Though now some manufacturers are "down marking" to really confuse those of us with very limited mental function. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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I have one rod that I "underline" on a regular basis because it simply casts a lighter line better when you are casting a long line. That's how I ususally use this rod. On another [a St Croix LU] I found that I don't really like "fast" rods after I bought it. I know - cast B4 buying! And I did but casting for a short time on the grass is completely different from fishing the rod for a day or so. I can't feel the thing load and I have to "work" more with this rod than my older rods. So I overlined it. It slowed the action down 'til I can finally feel it when I cast. Don't have to pay so much attention to my casting. I like easy.
I think the "mfgr's line weight" is a suggested weight and may very well be different for different casters. The only to find out is to try it.
Just my $.09 worth [inflation, you know]
Donald
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I have a St. Croix, Imperial that is rated as a 5 Wt. and it simply didn't feel "alive" with a 5 wt. line. I put my reel with a 6 wt. line on that rod and did it ever come to life. I asked a similar question to yours on another board and received responses similar to what you have received. General consensus seems to be try a heavier or lighter line. The rod will tell you what it likes. Ain't gonna hurt nuthin'.
Vic
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John
While I'm not a big fan of over lining, I think there is something to be said about finding a line that matches the rod. I have a St Croix 8' 5wt PG. I've tried different weight lines and my preference is still a 5wt line. About all you can do is try the 8wt and see how you like it. I suspect it will load your rod more and you will loose some distance when casting.
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for the most part I trust the munufacturers specs and I've had few problems.I have an 8 wght pro graphite and I really battled to feel it loading until I either aerialised ALOT of line or lined up to a 10,so I guess it's really a matter of personal preference.
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I generally agree with JC on this topic but will offer a varied point of view here. If the 8wt you built has less weight on it, (lighter, fewer, or single footed guides, less thread, less epoxy, stiffer ferrules) then you may need to bump up one line weight to get it to flex well.
However, you also keep in mind that a heavier line does not inherently fly better into the wind, a tighter loop does. To understand why, think of a golf ball versus a tennis ball. The golf ball weighs roughly 1.6 oz and the tennis ball weighs roughly 2 oz. If you teed them both up and whacked them with a Big Bertha, which would you expect to go farther? The golf ball will, due to its reduced wind resistance even though it weighs less. Casting loops work the same way.
With equal size loops, the 8wt line will be more effective at beating the wind than the 6wt, but overlining a rod generally results in bigger loops, not smaller ones. The greater weight puts more flex in the rod, which generally increases the distance between the top and bottom of the loop.
An 8 wt line will turn over a big/heavy fly better, but that's another matter all together.
I have cast those pro graphite rods and don't think they should be double-overlined.
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Hi there White The one thing that has not been brought up that you may need to consider.... You may be doing some damage to the rod. No one is sure how many time you can bend a fly rod before you Fatuge the blank. But experts do agree that every time you bend it some life is gone and the more stress you put on it each bend the more life that go's By over lineing a rod X 2 you may be slowly breaking your rod. There is a fair amount of testing that goes into a rod line match and with very few exceptions the rod companys are right and the shops are wrong!!
Food for thought
Rich
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The lifetime of graphite is very long, unless it's abused. Heat, such as storing in the trunk of your car in the summer, can cause it to break down. Chips can weaken the wall. But it ought to perform for many, many years otherwise. Personally, I doubt the fibers degrade much, if at all, during casting, even if overlined.
If it were a bamboo rod, I would think differently about it.
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John,
I say "if it feels good, do it", to coin a phrase. I overline my 2 wt carp rods with a 3 wt. line because I'm more often than not casting short distances and I want the rod to load with a short line. Also, I have an 8 wt. Sage Xi2 that I like a whole lot better with a 9 wt. SA GPX line (my favorite line) than the same 8 wt line. If you're casting short distances a lot, or with big bugs, you may want to overline but if your trying to boom out long casts from a boat for, say, stripers or surfacing sandbass, you may want to stick with the line recommended for the rod. Experiment and see what feels good to you. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules here.
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You all may want to stay tuned and read Tom Kirkman's article next week on the Easiest Way to Break a Rod...complete with photos.
Is 'overlining' in there?
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
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White43 - Here's the kind of situation where I sometimes get "yelled" at 'cause I'm "in the business" and some folks somehow seem to occasionally take some offense at an industry type wading in here - tho it almost NEVER happens here, on FAOL, thank goodness.
I've been a sales rep for some major FF companies for approaching 20 years now,one of them being the by-far leading producer of premium rods, so believe me, I've seen and heard a TON about overlining rods.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE read JC's gruff reply, and Big Cliff's reply, and PLEASE believe 'em.
Cliff's is THE VERY BEST 3 paragraphs on the subject I have ever read or heard in my over 45 years of flyfishing. I wish he'd been my high school physics teacher.
If the rod says it's an 8 weight .... well, it is. At least it is to the rod designer. There's a good chance that a particular rod "family" might be far too fast or far too slow for a customer's casting style, but that's definitely NOT saying fast or slow is right or wrong.
You won't "wear out" the graphite in your rod by bending it. Given today's resins, it has a life span of ...oh, several eons or more. You WILL, quite possibly, break the puppy off right at the cork if you cast out 70 feet of 10 weight line on your 8 weight rod, and then try to heave all that line up off the water. I've done exactly that. I know it can happen.
Cary
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Why does everybody buy these high tech mod-fast to fast action rods and then overline them(in essence slowing them down)? I don't get it....
If feeling the rod load is reason, wouldn't it just be better to buy a softer action rod and keep the "right" line on it? Or maybe develop a better ability to feel the rod load?
That said, there can be a variance in what the optimal line is for a blank and what the manufacturer's stated line wt is( see [url=http://www.superbob.org/CC_Data.htm:0c199]http://www.superbob.org/CC_Data.htm[/url:0c199] for a list of blanks analyzed using Dr' Bill Hanneman's Common Cents system). But if I bought a 3wt from a shop and found out that it was really best with a 4 or 5 wt line, I'd be a little ticked off...
Charlie
[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 19 April 2005).]
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xi,
Are you sure there were not other underlaying factors that could have contributed to the failure of the rod you mention?
We have reefed quite extensively on an albacore that was approaching 30#-35# with a 9wt, and I KNOW for sure that the rod had never even been close to being that stressed tossing ANY concoction of lines we use. As a matter of fact, the rod still tosses big bushy bass and striper bugs just fine, whether we're tossing a chunk of LC or an up-lined floater. But then we ain't too good at casting, so we may not know the rod is "off".
We have under-wrapped or double-wrapped a couple rods because we know the abuse ours must stand. One is a 8'9" 3wt LL series. It had withstood the task of bringing to hand a 20# plus stingray that got snagged while we were targeting halibut in the bay. It still does fine tossing for BG's, even. Had to poop-can the reel though. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
.....lee s.
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Grand poo-bah - If he does wrap the rod as in Big Cliff's quote - lighter guides, etc. - then the tip has less swing weight, so it will likely feel a little faster. That would be a bit more apparent to a very old and "practiced" hand, but faster none the less.
But,I'm NOT saying that he should then go up a line size. That goes back to there being no absolute right or wrong as to "fast" or "slow". The rod just needs to perform as the user thinks he WANTS it to perform. And that individual preference is so darned subjective, I won't say "it's now a 9 weight".
Related thought --- As interesting and thoughtful and detailed as some system like the Common Cents formulas (just as a for instance) might be, the creator of some given "system" of rod-rating still starts out with, or is influenced by THEIR subjective sense as to how a fly rod "should" bend or load. So the system works very well for them & their style of casting, but perhaps less well for the next guy.
It just means that the manufacturers have to offer an assortment of "styles' or "families" of rods that cover a broad spectrum of casting-style preferences. It's become a dazzling array of choices, but the huge selection available these days means that sometimes the customer ends up getting the "wrong" style of rod.
That could bring up a whole other can of worms regarding how well or how badly a customer is listened to or attended to in a shop, but I ain't going to get into that here.
This part relates to lee s's post as well about reefing on big Albies:
No. I don't believe that actual fatigue-of-the-graphite will occur by overlining a rod, assuming just "normal" casting distances (whatever the heck "normal" means).And here I'm talking about rather recent, modern rods using current, state-of-the-art resins which are WAY more flexible and much more able to keep the graphite strands glued together than rods from say, the 80's.
As to my exploding-at-the-cork 8 weight,I was talking about sudden,quick, massive overloading versus the relatively smooth cycle of a "normal" cast, or putting a bend in the rod to fight fish.
There's a great big ol'huge difference in what the rod "experiences" when you're bending a rod waaaay over fighting a fish, as opposed to what the quick shock to it is when trying to pick up off the water what turns out to be waaaay too much line. It's a momentum thing - or a lack thereof.
If Big Cliff will chime in here, his inimitable grasp of physics-put-to-words can 'splain best what my feeble words struggle with.
(By the way, lee s, what in the WORLD were you doing using a 3 weight to fish for Halibut??)
Cary
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Sorry xi,
Even though we accept the responsibility of our ways, and expect warranty deletions (is that a word? http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif ), we are a pain for some manufacturers. We usually do stuff all bass ackwards anyway and it IS amazing what rods WILL stand up to. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
Heck, if we don't break'em, how do we expect to justify the purchase of a "new" one to the bride! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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I overline all of my rods. Having said that, I also build all my own and use only IM6 blanks. I like moderate rods and the IM6 blanks are plenty strong to handle 1 or even 2 sizes of line over the rating. Especially since most rods these days are labeled incorrectly so that they can be in on the fast is better craze. Bottom line, any rod will cast several different line sizes at different distances. The rod doesn't know if it's throwing 70' of 8wt or 50' of 10wt line since they will both weigh about the same. This is why the common cents system is so great. It enables us to make informed decisions on what line weight will work best at our "normal fishing distances". I fish a Forecast 7.5ft 4pc 4wt blank with a 6wt line because at the 40ft distances I fish, it loads the rod beautifully and practically casts itself. I find that with a WF4 line, it's just too much work. I'm not sure about possible blank failures that this would cause with the newer "high modulus" blanks, but I don't have to worry since IM6 graphite suits me just fine.
Lou
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Cary, Thanks for the compliment. You may be proud to know I got the largest part of my education in this sport from the team of Bruce, Rick, and the Rev. in San Antonio. If I was still there, you would have a retail rep who doesn't think the TCR is too fast.
Regarding the explanation of physics, I have tried to express that same thought many times on various posts and just now figured out how to best illustrate the point. Unfortunately, I am not as confident in my ability to explain this next issue, but I'll take a shot.
I am sure, however, that it has to do with the force being applied both so suddenly, and with increasing pressure. Say you have a rod bent into a 90 total bend already and a fish makes a one foot surge. As it surges farther, it will be fighting greater resistance from the rod and its velocity will most likely decrease. This is similar to the way a shock on a vehicle works. As the gas is further compressed, there is more resistance keeping the vehicle from bottoming out. If they tried to make shocks as light as we do fly rods, they might explode under extreme force too.
The gradual reduction in velocity due to increased rod or shock load is different from the casting motion which you described because you were undoubtedly accelerating through the casting stroke, rather than slowing, as would a rod-fighting fish. This means the force on the rod would be increasing at an increasing rate, rather than gradually topping out. You are overpowering the strength of the rod, which is to be expected. After all, you are using the grip of 70 feet worth of surface tension and the strength of a grown man against a hollow 5 oz stick.
How's that?
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Xi...Yes, the CC system may start from one person's thought of what a "X" wt rod should feel like(there is a little more than this to it however). Once you know how the system applies itself, you'll be able to determine what weight rod you want based on the data. The system allows itself to be carried through to ANY type of rod. So, instead of dealing with what Sage's rod designer thinks is a fast 4 wt, and what Lefty thinks is a fast 4wt, and what loomis's rod designer thinks is a fast 4wt, you have one point of reference to go to allowing you to compare all of them with a bit of science versus subjectivity.
Charlie
[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 21 April 2005).]
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xi,
I'm glad you're finally "out of the closet", man. Keep it coming. This is good stuff.
Robert
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Hi John,
IMHO BigCliff and Xi hit it dead on! I'm beginning to get to the point where my casting is very controllable and predicatable and have also been overlining some of my rods by 1 wt.
This should maybe be reconsodered however, especially given BigCliffs example! I was going for more distance and his explanation makes perfect sense!
Hmmm. Dammit...It all boils down to that same ol' "Learn to cast properly" credo then doesn't it!
At a recent "cast off" in a local tennis dome this winter, one of Minnesota's best casters got hold of my sage 9' 3wt SP loaded with 4wt SYLK line and was answering some questions for me.
He gave a few demo casts with this outfit, paused and remarked "Damn, this is one fine setup you have here"...
Again, confusion! ;-))
I'll heed the advise given here.
Thanks,
Jeremy.
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The Sylk line is known for being on the light side. This may actually mean that it is in the middle of the allowed weight range for a given line weight while the other lines on the market are at the top of the allowable range. This means that there is really only half or less of a "weight" difference between a 3wt GPX and a 4wt Sylk.
The Sylk is also of a smaller diameter, which may lead one to think that it is actually a lighter weight than it is. I think they achieved this by building it on a GSP core. I sure hope you didn't screw up that Sylk line on that tennis court!
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If stating "facts" rather than opinion were my intention, I would not have used "is known for" and "may actually mean". Feel free to call me on it when I am stating incorrect information or opinion as though it is fact, but that is not what was done in this case.
I didn't intend to promote the line mentioned, but rather just intended to explain the effects of the fact that a given "weight" of line is not going to have an exact weight, but just be within a range of acceptable weights.
JC, I greatly appreciate all that you have done over the years to create, support, and maintain this site. I also think that one of the biggest benefits of this site is its wealth of information, both objective and subjective, that help all of us make purchases and become better at this sport.
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Thanks BigCliff. Great explanation and I appreciate it. I can't work hard enough on my casting strokes. I really love it, especially in wintertime when it gets d--m COLD here in Mn. Still, I make "snow snakes" in my back yard!
And no, that indoor court was covered in pads like the wrestlers use. It made for a superb day in the very early spring. I'll remember days like that when I get old and can't fish! My definition of hell!
Thank you again.
Jeremy.
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Hummm so is it a St.Croix thing or what??...lol..cause I have an older 7'6" 3wt Ledgend that I've been tossing a 5wt. Mastery line on for almost as long as I've owned the rod,and the same reel is also my reel for my Diamondback 9' 4wt. All American.
And both of these rods seem near perfect for me and my casting stroke,On the other hand I also have a redington 9'6" 7wt that I throw a 6wt. Headstart line on and I can throw the backing knot 30ft out the tip top on the open river for smallies...So I await that article next week with great enthuseium Miss Ladyfisher...
I've seen Ted Leeson "recamend" (overlining) in american Angler many times...many many times in the time I was a subscriber of that publication..and I think as many a flyfisher does,that his opinion weighs heavily in mine and others decisions. Either way,I'll not change the way I fish any of these rods..I like em just as they are ;-)
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"Wish ya great fishing"
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As I think I noted in my first post I cast the St Croix LU at the "shop" for a bit before I bought it. However, after fishing it for a full day I found I wasn't as fond of the fast action as I origionally thought. Therefore, the quick fix was to overline it - thereby slowing the action down. That seemed a better option than parking a $300 rod in the closet. Perhaps with summer [and warm weather] I'll put the 4 wgt line back on it and spent the time and try to pick up the timing. Perhaps not. Actually it casts a 5 wgt very well. I may end up preferring it as a new 5 wgt rather than as a 4 wgt. But I don't see any damage being done by uplineing one size. I've done it numerous times and have 30 + year old rods that I've always overlined and they show no damage. So I guess I'll just continue as I always have.
Donald
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Jeremy,
How do you like your SYLK Line????..I have a number of old Bamboo rods with the small size guides and was thinking of trying those lines on em,But I'll admitt to being the sceptical type,as I tend to avoid "new" or "improved" things till I've heard positive word on there effectiveness and reliability.
,Bill
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"Wish ya great fishing"
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J.C. I have more trust in you and Ladyfisher than you can possibly know...lol....that said....
the overlining mentioned in the article which I've read and am proud to say I've long since learned all of those things...Patience is the one thing that I can honestly say MUST be learned..and it'll only come with age...the only refferance I seen was of over lining in the LB.Test way....
yes if lined to heavily and jarred with alot of overpowering then I can see where there can be a risk of rod failure...but a line size over is not the end of the world,Nore is it going to hurt unless one is very heavy handed and over powering on the cast...
I've had a rod or two break, abnd yes as I read the article I seen where I'd failed with a very large Rainbow trout on...thank goodness for warrenties my 7'6 St.Croix ledgend survives to this day.I did'nt bow to her,but she was no sooner on and shot out of the water on the hookset (snap)!!!
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"Wish ya great fishing"
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I feel I should post an update on the St Croix LU rod - an 8' 4 wgt - that I was uplining. This week has been too cold and windy for fishing but has been warm enough to spend some time in the backyard cleaning up the wife's flowerbeds and casting the LU rod [in between wind gusts of 35 mph!!]. I've picked up the timing on the rod and now find it very pleasant to cast with the 4 wgt line. Perhaps the first trip of the season when we're reaaaalllly anxious to catch that first fish of the year isn't the best time to break out the new rod you haven't cast much!! **G**
However, still think it's worthwhile to try a line size on either side of the marked line if you're having problems casting. Just my thoughts.
Donald
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Tis' alright,J.C. ....Would like to thank you for having and keeping this site so well..where you find the time to keep abreast of things as well as you do is beyond me..and still have time on the water that is...lol..This is "THE" most Informative Flyfishing site I've ever seen on the web.It's become my happy place (off the water)and I do very much enjoy everything about FAOL,Thanks,Bill
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Maybe it's my lack of casting skills or maybe it's psychological, but I overline frequently depending on whether or not I'm satisfied with the perfomance of my rod. I don't buy this one-size-fits-all stuff. I look at the #weight rod as merely a recommendation and start with that line weight. If I don't feel I'm getting maximum performance for my casting style, then I start experimenting and settle on the line weight that gives me the most distance with the least amount of effort. Most of the time I don't overline, but of the 20 plus rods I own, I overline on 6 of them.
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This isn't going to be a 'popular' statement, but - an experienced caster can make any rod perform. In case you didn't read Tom Kirkman's article, overlining is a very common cause of rod failure.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Pay attention to the line you use on any rod.
The line should always be the weak link in the chain, not the rod. Using a higher line test [OVERLINING] than recommended and
applying maximum pressure with it can easily
break a rod.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you feel you must overline a rod for it to perfom to your requirements, sell the rod and get one that works. Or just maybe, take a casting lesson.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
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LF - I find it difficult to accept that you'd be concerned about having an "unpopular opinion". **G** Furthermore, I agree with you that an experienced caster will be able to adjust to just about any action. In my "defence" tho the LU is a much faster rod than I am used to using. I just needed to get to "know the rod". I didn't take that time while I was fishing. Did later and I really like the rod now.
Your other suggestions are certainly valid but may cause some problems for those members located "out in the hinderland". Selling a rod may be problematic. Money may be a problem. For several years after I "learned" flycasting the only people to ask for a casting lesson was my uncle [who taught me] and the man who taught him! They were the ones that introduced the bad habits I already had! For some, overlining will make a poor rod usable until it can be replaced. I agree wholeheartly that you should cast a a rod B4 you buy - but for some that isn't possible.
New flyfishermen today have it so much better - access to this board and others like it, several books written on casting and flyfishing in general and, for warmwater flyfisherman, books dealing with panfish and bass - not trout tactics that must be "adopted" to their fishery.
'Nuf about dat. I'll get offen my soapbox!
Donald
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Ok...it's me..."Mr. Ignorant", and my take is that if I like a good product & trust the company enough to lay out $200 or $300 (or more), I'm gonna use what they recommend. Then I'm gonna learn to use it properly (I hope!). Obviously, I'm no expert, and that sometimes can be an advantage. I guess I envision it (in a highly exaggerated sense) as either repeatedly "deadlifting" a guppie or a 2 pound fish with the same rod. Seems pretty obvious that, as said before, either will put stress on the rod, there is no question which puts more. Unlike humans, rods don't grow muscles with exercise.
"This has been one idiot's opinion."
Mike
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Ouch!! Lady Flyfisher, that one hurt? I already admitted to a probable lack of casting skill, but hey, I have a lot of fun expermenting with line weights to my personal taste. I've never broken a rod during the casting motion, which might also be an indication that I'm not using the rod properly. I'll work on that. Thanks!
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When Mr. Kirkman refers to "putting maximum pressure" on an overlined rod would that occur during the cast or when fighting a fish? Asked another way, can I damage a rod by casting a higher line weight or does the danger come only when fighting fish or are both activities potentially dangerous to the rod?
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I am not saying this with any intention of contradicting above posts in any way, but I think that the "overlining" mentioned in the article was not as specific as we are taking it to be.
I think he meant this term to also be applied to lines used on spinning and casting rods. With the increasing use of "superlines", it has become common for a lure fisher to use 30lb test GSP on a rod intended for 8-17lb line, due to the line's small diameter. I would be willing to bet that this form of overlining has caused much more rod breakage than bumping up to a higher weight fly-line has.
I took his mention of that in the article to mean that you shouldn't fish 12lb tippet on your 1wt rod and expect to be able to horse a 10lb carp as hard as your manly arms can without breaking the rod. I think that is much more likely to cause that rod to fail than fishing it with a 2wt line all the time.
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Bigcliff....Thats exactly what I had gotten out of the artical...the exact part L.F. had quoated...still sounds as though he was spicfically talking of pound test...not grain wt...
I'm not saying that grossly overloading with a heavier line is'nt going to cause rod failure...far as that goes tossing heavier/larger flies can have the same effect..say a 1 wt and larger bass bug....I've done worse...Orvis is a very kewl company to deal with...but to that end they had just changed ferule systems and they said it was their fault reguardless of what fly I was casting...I know better
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"Wish ya great fishing"
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BigCliff,
Funny you should mention "superlines"...I had actually wondered about those. I use spinning/baitcasting tackle "maybe" twice a year anymore, but my standby there has & always will be "Clear Blue Stren".
Mike