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But, JC, isn't replacement built into the price? For example, the orvis travel rod is NOT guaranteed, and that's why it is relatively cheap. It's my understanding when you buy a rod today you are actually buying two. So, I'd agree with you IF the rod manufacturers then lowered their price. But I suspect that won't happen.. Just my two cents...
There are rods out there with less than full guarantees, they are offered at a reasonable price (reasonable for one might not be reasonable for another), and give a great alternative to rods that are available with a full guarantee (at a premium).
That we the consumer are at fault for this is wrong, in my opinion. Didn't the rod companies offer the full guarantee in the first place? How is it our fault for taking advantage of these warranties (note I didn't say abuse)? I can't understand why I'm to blame for a rod company offering a very lucrative and popular product (the warranty).
I've sent in a rod that 6" of the tip broke off when it got accidentally slapped on the water. I paid for a product that included the cases where damage to it was repaired regardless of circumstances. In my case, it wasn't defect of workmanship, it was an unfortunate circumstance of life in the flyfishing world... and I don't mind paying a premium to have these circumstances minimized (FWIW, that rod cost me $135).
Using the guarantee/warranty when the breakage isn't the result of workmanship isn't unreasonable.
Really, with all due respect to JC, I think the whole thing started from an entirely different premise. Like with all manufactured products for sale in the United States, the consumer started looking for a way to sort the good from the junk, and a respectable warranty was one major way for manufacturers to distinguish themselves. I think the exact same principle but with varying details has distinguished many companies manufacturing other products.
I also believe that there is an over-generalization at work that most rod breakages are due to improper use. I believe that the personality type that will break a rod from improper use is the same that will raise lots of hell about it to anyone who will listen, creating the impression that only idiots have broken rods.
Finally, the return to values of yesteryear when people stood behind their products without the high prices in today's market will only return when the powers-that-be put the American worker and company first, not every jackleg foreign outfit that turns out widgets for half as much twice as fast.
Just my .02! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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[url=http://www.native-waters.com:c41ad]http://www.native-waters.com[/url:c41ad]
As I remember it, rod warranties started with Orvis offering a 25 year warranty, I believe in the late '70s.
Perhaps they were tring to distinguish themselves as Roger says, but I think that they were just tring to match LL Bean's policy of standing behind eveything they sold.
From Orvis' 25 year warrenty, everything snowballed untill all major rod producers felt that they needed to warranty their rods just to stay compeditive.
The result was the dramatic jump in the price of a fishin' pole.
[This message has been edited by dudley (edited 31 October 2005).]
EDIT: I was way off on my time line here,
the Orvis garrantee started some 10 years later.
[This message has been edited by dudley (edited 01 November 2005).]
[This message has been edited by dudley (edited 01 November 2005).]
I'd venture to say it goes back much further than that--didn't premium bamboo rod manufacturers offer two tips with their rods? isn't that, in effect, and undconditional guarantee?
Dave,
This business about warranties was a major topic of discussion at the time. It was hashed and rehashed at clubs and on the water much the same as the the effect of "the movie" some 10-15 years later.
still, even though it was called such, wasn't giving you two tips with a bamboo rod saying "if you break the tip, here is a replacement"?
as far as pricing, g. loomis was about the last company to offer the warranty, albeit kicking and screaming. their rod, prior to the warranty, were still quite expensive!
I'm not a bamboo guy, but I believe the two tips were so you could "rest" one so that it wouldn't take a set.
Lke you said, when you buy one rod, you're paying for two. I'd like both of mine at the same time, if it's all the same to the rod company. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
I think that the first unconditional rod warrenty was on the early Fenwick HMG rods. They were having trouble selling them at the time because they were so much more fragile than either glass or bamboo. Many of us had trouble paying almost a hundred dollars for a rod that was prone to breakage. This was basically a marketing technique and I'm not sure that they made sufficient allowance in the price to cover replacements since they later renigged on it. It did set a precedent for what we expect from a high end rod though.
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all leaders tangle; mine are just better at it than most. Jim
I treat all my equipment with the same respect regardless of it's price. I think only well made rods, reels or whatever even offer guarantees. I had a Scott rod that a foot and a half long piece of the tip broke clean. I had used it for years. I don't use weighted flies or add weight to my leader.When I sent it to them they just sent it back along with a blank but the bill they sent me for shipping was $40 or 3 times what it cost me to send it to them. It then cost me another $50 to have it wrapped using the guides and tip top off my old rod....So much for a Scott Warrantee. Orvis on the other hand just gave me a new reel when I brought in one that I had put a small dent in the rim of and just wanted to see if they could straightened out.. It was the result of a fall I took on the Ausable and certainly not that of Orvis or the mfg of the reel. I didn't go in looking for a new reel and was quite surprised. Needless to say who my loyalty goes to.
Of course now I fish cane and the makers all gaurantee their rods for 'their' lifetimes or 'mine', whichever is the shortest. lol.
a lot of the manufacturers honor the warranty but with a 'shipping and handling' cost. my guess is that's the actual cost of the rod....
Maybe I'm simple but this seems not very complicated to me.
If I pay (usually more) for a rod because it has an Unconditional Warranty then when it breaks for WHATEVER REASON I will happily and without guilt expect a replacement. That's what unconditional means and that's why I paid for it.
On the other hand, if it's a manufacturer's defect only warranty and I smash it in a car door, I'll suck it up and deal with the replacement myself. I don't like fraud from a manufacturer and I expect they don't like fraud from me. And we both deserve that much respect.
Diane
I've had salesman literally say, "even if you slam it in a car door, we'll replace it." Why should I argue with them?
A couple of years ago I watched a man play a salmon so badly the rod was bent like a horseshoe. It broke. He laughed and said no problem, that was the THIRD one he had broke that week. It didn't break because it was defective, it broke because he was an idiot!
And I helped to pay for his THREE rods.
Actually he probably took that one back and got a fourth.
[This message has been edited by LadyFisher (edited 31 October 2005).]
Tyflier implies that originally the intent of the unconditional lifetime warrany was that the manufacturer was expressing confidence in the quality and reliability of their rods, and that the buyers are the ones who have taken the idea to unrealistic extremes. The first long term warranty I ever saw was from Orvis, and they made a big splash by saying they didn't care how you broke it, they would ask no questions, and would happily replace the rod. I remember one ad showing a bird dog chewing up an Orvis rod, in which the text of the ad said "when your best friend chews up your other best friend". Ads like these are what set up the "unrealistic expectations". The first unconditional "lifetime" warranty I can remember came from Redington. They described it as the "car door, river" guarantee. While I agree that there are some idiots out here that could and would tear up an anvil if given the chance, I believe the rod manufacturers have nobody to blame but themselves for the situation they find themselves in. Unfortunately this also seems to have driven up the cost of a quality rod significantly.
Larry Compton
"I've had salesman literally say, "even if you slam it in a car door, we'll replace it." Why should I argue with them?"
That is what Redington factory told me. it does not matter to them how it broke.
jed
as far as you paying for others neglligence, let's be honest here--do you think the price of rods will drop drastically if they eliminate the warranty? i don't. so you'll be paying for it anyway and not getting it.
My dad was a custom home builder from the 1920's to the 70's. He would build a house one at a time and take his time to get it right. He would give the buyer a lifetime gaurantee.. My dad's lifetime that is... My mom used to say don't do that, someone might take you up on the offer, she had a lot less faith in humanity than dad did. Nobody in 50 years took the offer. Back then people took responsability for their actions, if they broke it was always their fault.
The lesson I learned from my dad was to always be a professional and do the job right the first time.
When I sell a custom fly rod I give the buyer 30 days, if it doesn't break in 30 days it will never break from anything I did wrong or any defects in the components...FB.
Dianne - I think you summed it up perfectly.
Thank you.
Probably my post on breaking a rod that started all this stimulating discussion (and more). Interestingly enough, when I asked advice about buying rods *most* (not all) said spend a few more bucks and get the one with the guarantee. Though I seem to be enduring a few cyber "down the nose" looks, guess I'm glad I did.
Sorry if I cost you money.
hide hunter--so YOU'RE the one!!! i look at it this way--at the end of the year the govt. offers me a refund on the taxes i've overpaid, and i take it. if i break a rod the rod company offers me a new rod for the overpriced rod i bought, and i take it.
The warranty is a contract between purchaser and mfg. It was offered without coercion by the mfg. It was accepted by the purchaser at time of purchase. Consumers did not form a union and demand unconditional warranties from the mfgs. If the mfg offers such a warranty and I break the rod cleaning my shotgun barrel with it, then that contract entitles me and obligates the mfg to a replacement. THEY wrote the contract! If they don't like the contract they can change it. If I don't like the contract I can choose not to buy their product. There are plenty of choices for the consumer in the marketplace.
If anyone is to blame for unconditional warranties it is the mfgs. who offer them. They wrote the contract. They thought up the idea. And they are also to blame for the prices of their products. They set these prices based on two factors: cost of product and price the market will allow them to get by with charging. The only role the consumer plays in this equation is what the market will bear. So, at most, we have some responsibility for the high prices, but NONE for the warranty.
Finally, "the customer is always right" is also a marketing choice of the company. They don't have to take this approach if they don't want to. There are plenty of examples in the business world where this is NOT the standard. I don't want a doctor, attorney, accountant, auto mechanic, therapist, personal trainer, architect, or police man who adheres to this philosophy working for me.
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Fishing the Ozarks
The approach that Abel takes with their rod warranty seems to be fair and reasonable. They gaurantee the rod for life against defect. There is a pre-established price for repairs, defined per section. Butt sections cost twice what tip sections cost to repair.