Big Rant!

I need to get off some steam about something that happened last night.

Quick background: I was one of a handful who started the process of establishing a local chapter of the FFF. However, when it did get established, and I saw that the group had other goals then the ones I had in mind, I did not join. That was 4 years ago. Since then I have continued a limited association with the group. I attend most meetings, am often asked to provide information and/or guidance, participate in some programs, help out most of the time and have volunteered many hours. All this even though I am a non-voting 'guest' at their meetings.

So, at the meeting last night, this is what happened: There is a full day educational program coming up and plans are being made. Within that program will be door prizes and I brought something to donate for that purpose. Before I made that donation however, there was an agenda passed out describing some up-coming events. I noticed that a 'guest speaker' was being scheduled for an up-coming meeting and he was going to be paid a nice chunk of money. I mentioned to one of the members that I don't think we should pay that money. (BTW, we don't pay local people, some very knowledgeable, who make similar presentations)
He got a little ticked and told me, "How we spend our money is none of your f***ing business. You're not a member!" Well, I didn't say another word about it or anything else during the meeting I also put the item I had intended to donate back in my jacket pocket. I will honor the commitment I made to participate in this up-coming educational program but that's it.

That's my rant. Now, here's my question: As a non-member, should I speak to the club president about this?

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 08 March 2005).]

I would! And i'm sure he'd be grateful for your input. Treating non-memebers that way doesn't sound like a good way to make them become members!

Allan,
In my experience with a number of groups, you are probably more active, hence more valuable, than many of the "voting members. The other part is "respect". NO one deserves a response like you got, and I would certainly say something. Micus is right, that person's approach doesn't sound like a very good member recruitment approach.
Mike

I think you should speak out. Was the person who told you to be quiet speaking for himself or was he expressing the FFF policy. If you do not get satisfaction I think that the following logic would work wonders re-establish your relationship with them.

If they are paying the guest speaker, and not you, from now on you should demand pay as well. Both you and the other guest call into the same category (non-members). Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

jed

[This message has been edited by Jed (edited 08 March 2005).]

Hi Jed,

Appreciate the thought. No, I haven't been a guest speaker. Last year this organization paid one about $300 plus travel. Among other comments I heard were, "not worth it" and "waste of time". Now they are going to pay another speaker $250 (he may well be worth it). However, the group has a couple of members who will be giving lengthly presentations and they will not be paid. I don't think this is necessarily fair.

Allan

Allan,
I pretty much agree with what's been said but I am curious.

I sounds to me like you've been quite supportive of this group. Aren't you enabling them as much [maybe more] than if you paid dues?

Not being judgmental truly just curious.

Allan, I'd tell the prez. Perhaps he could take this guy to school about "how we treat our guests" or at least he'd become aware of a potential problem in the group. Knowing him a little, I'd say he'd like to know.

I've always been amazed at how willing groups are to part with their money one day and completely unwilling the next. Amazed, but not surprised.

Which brings me to this. A guy once suggested a policy to me that I'm trying to follow. Criticize me if you want, but it helps my sanity. "Never go to an indoor meeting about an outdoor hobby."

Aren't fishing groups fun? http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif That is why I do not belong to any of them. I donate to them when asked but other than that I do not want any part of it. Been there done that. I will go and help them on river clean ups and such and like I said donate flies and other things to them but will not be a member of them. To much back biting for me. Ron

RON MT.......Ditto........

As a member and a master, I am a bit embareasssssed you were treated that way.unfortunatly your club has big shot idous and think they get more if they spend more.(dumb) in every place I have ever been there is as much (sometimes more) talant close by as you can hire from out side. but the expert is always from out of town. But I will say if you want it changed, join up run for office and change it!!! it is kinda like bithing about goverment and not voting.

Rich

You are a better man than I am, that is for certain. When he told me it was none of my f*&#%ing business I think I would have snapped a 12 weight rod off in his a**.

I applaude your control. You know the president, so you would know if it would accomplish anything speaking with him.

Good Luck.

My 02? This group has gone way past fly fishing and to a state of "Hey look at us" Forgive me, sounds like snobs. That ain't got nothin to do with fly fishing. I would close the door as I left and looked for some folks who where interested in learning more, and enjoying each others company on, and off the water.Catching fish, not catching attention...

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Spelling and Grammar not subject to judgement... ;)

Here is my take on your situation. Right in the beginning, you had policy issues with this group, but you stayed with them while performing membership duties but remained a nonmember. At this point, there are two options. One is to just leave. Two, would be to join, then make some friends and allies, and then have your friends and you run for Office. Once in Office, your group sets the goals!

ags,

I appreciate your suggestion and I considered taking that tact at the very onset of the organization. However, if I did, I'd be pursuing, participating and coveting the very things I wanted to avoid.

I've opted to take your 'option #1' after fulfilling my commitment to the educational program that takes place later this month.

Allan

I have to say, Allan, you must be one cool cat to keep from punching that guy in the snot locker. My hat is off to you, man. I would go to the president, tell him what happened, give him your opinion, remind him of how much you have done for them and then walk out the door. Make them ask you to come back. Hey, maybe you can start your own local organization.

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Eric "nighthawk"

tyeflies,
Seems like the world is full of people who want to help. Seems like you ran across one who wants to help........himself!
You on the other hand deserve much commendation in your desire to help others. More of you are needed.
Clubs seem to be gathering spots for BOTH kinds.
......lee s.

PS,
I agree with your view as to "paying" travelling gurus instead of local knowledge. I too, would rather support my neighbor. However, many times "local knowledge" is not comfortable or maybe not perceived capable of presenting their knowledge in group settings.
The club should be lucky enough to have a "local" wanting to use the club setting for develope their presentation skills... :-)
.....me again.

I see how you are p**ed off about things! My gut reation would be to say f** 'em, and just walk away from them. I might then contact the pres and let him know how much they are missing out on without your involvement, member or not. If they value this you will know about it, if not, let them be the loser.

Good decision. You have taken the high road in fulfilling your commitment. Considering how the Club treated you, you would have been more than justified in just walking away at the time of the insult.

So far I have come to the conclusion that most haven't belonged to a fly fishing club and especially managed one. Tieflies should join and become a board member and voice his opinion where it counts. I've done that over ten years. We choose the guest speakers and pay what their worth. We pay over that $300 for some (600 miles travel)--what do you think Bob Clouser will cost us in his fee and air fare next month? To pay for his night we will charge more for non-members.
Our speaker fee money is raised by our yearly auction where members donate items. This year I'm putting in three rods 2 blanks and one tying bench. One member gave a new bamboo rod. All of our local net makers, rod builders and tyers are not payed. They do it once a year.

Nothing in a local club is controled by the FFF-someone said is that a FFF policy?

Fishcreek said he should used his 12 wt around his a" and Nighthawk added he should have punch the man---that would lead to assault and jail time.

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Bill

Al
Join the club and forget the insults! I was embarrased by the remark and felt like climbing under a rock with the hellgramites. I'm sure that the majority of the guys would have joined me there...if they had heard.

I've been considering a new philosophy. It's somewhat the reverce of what I've always held. "Go fishin, help with stream improvement and conservation and forget all the rest...especially the kids". We're overdoing it. (Like TM says)

When we were kids some of us learned to fish and it was a slow and painful but wonderful experience. We used sticks and button thread outfits. Some kids (like my best friend) tried it once and packed it in for life. He said that after waiting around for a fish to bite he began to feel stupid, then anger welled up in him so he kicked the coffee can into the river and threw his fishing stick as far out as possible and refused to let his dog fetch it back for him.

Maybe there are a limited number of people who are predisposed to be fishers and trying to boost the numbers is fruitless or even counter productive. Sorta like sex education...the more you educate them the earlier they start their sexcapades. Looking for the answer to that one, "more sex education at an earlier age. Start in the third grade!" (the result of that may be kindergarten sexcapaders)

Are we getting any more sportsmen with all the hulabaloo, schools, seminars etc that we're providing? Maybe not, New York state license sales are lower every year so we pile on more fly fishing schools and seminars! They may be having the very effect we are trying to avoid! Could we be turning them off. They go home and think to themselves "What a crock."

Then again, what do we need any more spostsmen for anyway? The rivers and streams could profit from fewer fishers.

The kids have plenty to do without hitting the river or going afield. There are video games, tousands of canned movies, overly organized team sports...Dang! The poor bastards aren't left to their own devices long enough to develop any self taught skills or any semblance of individuality! And individuality is what they crave! What do you think all that hardware they have in their eyebrows, noses, tongues and elsewhere is for. They're trying to be individuals and fall short of it because they don't know how. And I guess that that is what their modern "lets be friends" educators want and expect of them...some kind of preprogramed robotery.

Yes, they have fields of cannabis and all maner of other evils to lure them away from
the straight and narrow...but maybe...just maybe we wouldn't have to be so concerned about it if they were not so sheep like.
Individuality to them is another ring in their navel! They may need less adult supervision, not more!

Don't get out of the game, Al, hang in there, you Are appreciated.

Bill



[This message has been edited by snipe (edited 10 March 2005).]

William Fritzgerald,

"Fishcreek said he should used his 12 wt around his a" and Nighthawk added he should have punch the man---that would lead to assault and jail time."

Perhaps, perhaps not. The point being that so many people believe they can say what ever they want with no consequences. It just ain't so McGee.

It seems to be that somewhere in the past 30 years we have forgotten what it is to be a man. It means not to offend and disrespect, and it means to expect consequences if one does.

I would have told him to watch is tone and language with me, and if he used that language again I would hit him.

But that off course that is me, your mileage may vary.........................



[This message has been edited by Fishcreek (edited 10 March 2005).]

Snipe---delete one of your rants. One of your outlooks on life was bad enough.

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Bill

W. Fitz.
Which one would you have me delete, William?
They're all tissues of lies mixed with a few truths. Trouble is I don't know how to delete them and If I did I'd have to show my wife and she'd delete them all! Believe it or not, some even enjoy my posts! Hope that I didn't offend anyone ...I was just trying to stir the pot and develop a little regional rivalry. Read it again, I said that it was a new philosophy for me...Maybe I should scrub it, what do you think?

Bill

Bill....as in snipe...I think the thread he was talking about is the duplication of your thread on page one. Otherwise, I can't see anything wrong with what is being said. A lot mosrt patience has been used than I am capable. I'd have told him what he could do with the organization, the speaker, and any further obligations I had with them. It'd have been dark and crowded for all of them. But that's just me..sweet little me.
Betty

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Trouts don't live in ugly places

It just struck me wrong at a bad time --- yes there were two the same on the bottom of page one. Sorry--go to where you post and change things and you will see where to delete. Nothing wrong with what you were posting.

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Bill

Now that you've had a couple of days to let your feelings cool down a bit it might be time to consider whether you wre insulted by the club or by an ignorant jackass who happens to be a member. If the former I would want nothing more to do with them; if the latter then by all means bring it to the attention of the president. Or just avoid said jackass.

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all leaders tangle; mine are just better at it than most. Jim

Allan

Whatever you decide, but please take this into consideration.

If you leave, the losers are the people you were helping. So if you do leave do not punish the people that were greatful to you for everything you have done for them.

Make yourself available to them, either help start another club. (you still do not have to be an officer) The club you are in looks like it is running people off.
Or just make it known that you are available for the people that appreciate your input.

I know you have helped me and I would hate to see you not in the position to help others that do appreciate your experience.

Just another viewpoint.
I am truly sorry you ran into this crap.
But let me tell you a little story that happened to me.

One day I had a run in with a rude customer. He was really hateful and made me as mad as I can remember ever getting. But I was able to hold my tounge, there were other customers in the store.
After this jerk left a little old lady came to the counter looked at me with the eyes of a grand mom and said to me.
"It really is a shame that you have to go through people like that to get to nice people like me."

I finally retired from that job just because of the jerks that I had to deal with, but after that day they did not get to me as much. It seemed that I would get a great customer for every jerk. I miss the great ones, I can even remember most of their names. But not the jerks.......

Allan your judgement will be the right thing to do. You have cooled down enough not to react. But remember my little old lady.

Harold

This is John Lively, president of the aforementioned club. I know some of you, and don't know others. I'd like to comment on a couple of things that were said in this thread.

1. What happened at the meeting was unfortunate, unpleasant, and shameful and is not encouraged or tolerated by the club. The club is not 'running people off'.. what club would want that? It is like any other group of 20 or so people.. mostly good apples, a few that need polishing, and the occasional bad one. And from time to time, some people choose to leave for various reasons, while others join. If the club is healthy, it thrives on this, rather than is threatened by it.

2. In my opinion, there were two people who were out of line at the meeting. One as described by tyeflies above, and the other who sparked the incident by exclaiming 'This is bullsh%$' a bit too loudly when yours truly was passing around a funding proposal to be debated later in the meeting.

3. Past and present club officers can be faulted for not having a clear policy on guests and what the expectations are re becoming a member or not are, four years after founding the club. This will be addressed over the next few months.

In summary, a regrettable incident, with blame to go around for all involved, share and share alike. I've no interest in fanning the flames, but felt the other side of the story should be told.

4. On the subject of speakers fees. If a person makes some or all of his/her living via fishing (guiding, tying, writing, lecturing, etc.) then generally they expect to be paid to appear at a club event. If fishing is a hobby then generally speaking they do not expect payment. There are no hard rules, but these are the general guidelines we operate under.

5. People who devote time and energy to provide speakers and events for a club do expect something in return beyond 'thanks that was a good talk'. They expect you to contribute some of your time to help realize the goals of the club. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble? The club of course ought to make its mission and goals clear from the outset as well, so the 'implicit contract' is clear.

Thanks for hearing me out.

To all who bothered to read this thread and express a comment or opinion,

After this situation reared its ugly head and after several days of reflection, I decided to inform the membership of what transpired and simply divorce myself from any official ties to the organization. Last night at a weekly public tying activity (not FFF specific) I did that.

I won't comment on what John said in his post above. Whatever he perceives the concerns to be, he and the membership will deal, or not deal, with them.

Allan

From the FFF Code of Ethics:

... As part of our efforts to educate through fly fishing, we believe that ETHICAL BEHAVIOR is a key component of the angling experience. While the need to preserve for all anglers the natural beauty and quality of fisheries for future generations is paramount, CONSIDERATION for fellow anglers cannot be overlooked.

FFF believes it essential that fly anglers in all waters embrace an ethic that embodies consideration for the environment AND FOR OTHERS whether they are fishing or not. This Code of Angling Ethics complements the Catch and Release philosophy that is the hallmark of the Federation of Fly Fishers and reflects the importance of ethical behavior for all anglers. Moreover, it provides a framework for improving the angling experience by combining consideration of the fishery with RESPECTFUL CONDUCT towards fellow anglers. Overall, the policy denotes a journey in ethical behavior for fly anglers and not a destination.

Person-to-person and person-to-resource ethics go hand-in-hand.<<

The pompous arse who treated you that way shamed the Federation and embarrassed those of us who agree to the above statement. Perhaps someone suggest to him he read the FFF Code of Ethics.

At the risk of sounding like Beavis and Buthead's School teacher, "Can't we all just be friends?"

Ol' Bill

personally if i was in a club, that could afford to pay a guest speaker, but then had to raise money to work on needed projects, i would say the priorities are askew.
dump 'em and find a better organization!

Allan:

To be treated like that to me was an insult. I have seen your activity in the Guild and your willingness to always help. I think people at times do not like to be questioned on what they are doing. It's people like this that makes a club or organization bad. I also agree why pay for a guest tyer when there are som many talented local tyers available. A prime example is the guild. Your being a guest tyer one Saturday afternoon at the Guild meeting taught me how to tie comparaduns. I now tie them nicely and they look pretty. Sure this may be an easy tie for me now, but two years ago I did not know how to tie this fly. It was a member of the guild that taught me how to tie this. I did'nt see a big payroll placed in your hand that day. If it was, then Dave Brandt distracted me with going to get a beer. So when people treat me like this in a club, I too also leave. Yes some people in the club will lose out in the long run, but I know that once some one starts treating you like this, they will not stop this behaviour until you leave or they are thrown out. Finally how a club spends it's money should be open and questioned by all, meaning members and non members who are thinking of joining or who participates to help the club in any event or function. Sorry to here your issue, but that club does not realize what it lossed with your leaving.

Andy B

I'm not sure what FFF is, but here is my take on the incident. While I don't know what led up to the incident for sure ( I was not present), the use of the F word in public was inappropiate, and if he had done it around here to anyone, regardless of provocation, he would've been severely (and possibly physically) reprimanded by everyone within earshot. In my neck of the woods, you can, and will be thrown in what passes for a jail here for using that kind of language in public. It is called "Public Misconduct" and carries a penalty of up to 3 days in jail and/or a $150.00 fine. It was reprehensible and uncalled for, no matter what the issue was. It is inexcusable.

As for paying an out of town 'expert', it is unethical to pay an out-of-town speaker a fee if they are not paying locals when they speak. A Speaker is a Speaker regardless of what ever else they do for a living on other days, or where they live. Now, it would probably be OK to cover their travel, food and lodging expenses as a courtesy to an out of towner, if all the members agreed. It makes no difference if I am a CPA during the week. If I am asked to speak on Fly-Fishing, or whatever, on Fri. night, then for that night, I am the 'Expert', and entitled to all the perks and advantages of such, whether I live up the street or in Bangladesh! It's called RESPECT. A persons' time from another city is not worth any more than your friends' and nieghbors'time.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Semper Fi!

[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 28 March 2005).]