Loop to Loop

Hello all, and I hope that everyone is doing well!

Okay, a little problem has come up lately. I have been trying to use a loop to loop connection between my leader and fly line.

I have tried the Cortland loop leader conection that slide onto the fly line. But I have had some problems with first getting the thing on well enought to use. Also had problems with the heat shrink tubing not shrinking well enough and having the connection or my line start to melt before shrinking the heat shrink enough. I now that I could use a soldering iron to better control the heat, but haven't tried it yet.

I have also gone to a local fly shop and one of the guys there showed me a way to make a loop connection with the end of my fly line and using 3/0 fly tying thread. this has been really nice and strong, BUT after landing a few bass I have found some evidence of the butt end of my tapered leader cutting into the "rubber" section of the fly line. I am afraid of having the leader materila cut right through the line. Before anyone asks, I am using 2x-4X tapered type leaders from Scientific Anglers (monofilimant type.)

Another fly shop here told me to take the butt end of an old 2X leader and use a nail knot to secure to the fly line. Then leave 2 feet or so of leader and form a surgeon's loop to use for loop to loop. I am afraid that this method will create a hinge section and not let the leader turn over well. Also, I am fishing for bluegill and bass, and like to use 7.5 foot leaders around structure. This adding of 2 feet will only allow me to use a 7.5' at actuall length of 9.5' because of extra 2 feet!

I am lost all!!! i like to be able to change leaders fairly easily due to type of fishing I get into. I am tired of having to hack off sections of the end of my fly line.

HELP!!!!

What loop to loop connections do you all reccomend, and how do I use / attach them in a way that doesn't ruin any more of my line than I already have.

RCaillouet3, use the last method but reduce the length of the 2x section to just 2-3 inches. No reason for the 2 foot length unless someone assumes you'll be retying the loop over and over and will be cutting back on that portion. I redo my lines each winter and replace the loop portion with fresh material.

Al

Dear R:
Probably the best way, and I'm taking a risk saying it because someone will disagree with me, is to simply nail knot the leader directly to the fly line and put a tiny drop of superglue (cyanoacrilate adhesive) on the knot. Then tug on both lines so the excess superglue flicks off and hold it straight for about 30 seconds while the glue hardens. Now you have a perfect transmission of forces between fly line and leader with no hinge. By the way, I would never use a soldering iron on a fly line.
Migs

Lots of people use the heat-shrink connection and tell me that they have no problems at all. They shrink using an incandescent light bulb. I do the nail-knot thing and tie a perfection loop about 2-3 inches past the nail knot -- just as described.

I have found that superglue makes a very hard knot. I use knot glue that I bought at a local shop to secure the knots. It will be hard if it's over-applied as well.

Keep that super-glue out of reach of children! My number 2 son once super-glued both eyelids shut at about age 7. One of the many times I had him at the emergency room. We laugh now, but not at the time.

RCaillouet3:

I use the Cortland loops on all my lines except the Rio Lumilux that comes with built in loops. In using them I discovered a few things:

First; cut off the end of the fly line on an angle creating sort of a point, it helps get it going into the center of the braid. The very end of the braid usually unravels a bit before you get it going but persevere, it will eventually start going into the center of the braid.

Second; push the braid toward the line as you are pushing the line into it. By pushing the braid into the line you will cause it to open up and the line will slide in easier. You sort of inch it in except it will only go in about 3/8? at a time. I don?t know if you remember the old ?Chinese finger torture? gizmos that were sort of a booby prize at a carnival? Well the braided loops work on the same principal; push in to loosen, pull to tighten.

Third; push the line as far as you can into the braid; that will minimize any hinging.

Fourth; trim the frayed ends of the braid and SUPER GLUE on the heat shrink first, then use an incandescent light bulb to shrink it after FIRST putting a few layers of electrical tape on the fly line to protect the coating from excessive heat. You can put the heat shrink right on the bulb while rotating it.

Finally; and this may be the most important: the Cortland loops have pulled open on me and my fishing partners. So now I work some UV Knot Sense into the braid right below the point where the loop comes together and cure it with the mini UV light they sell with it. The Knot Sense works terrific and since I started gluing the loops I?ve never had one come apart again. I also carry the Knot Sense glue & light along with a couple of spare loops with me in my vest just in case. If you don?t have UV Knot Sense; super glue or Aqua Seal work well except they take longer to cure.

This all may sound like a pain in the butt but I like the loops and it only takes me about 5 minutes to get one on and I don?t have any problems with them afterwards. The loops also are a lot smoother than a perfection loop going through the guides.

RC, here are several ways to make fly line loops [url=http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/erloops/index.html:5007e]http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/erloops/index.html[/url:5007e]

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The thrill is not in the kill. It's in the deception.

Try this one.

"The Snipe Universal Butt Section Leader"

If you are using knotted leaders, tie the loop in the butt section. Various leaders are then tied to go loop to loop with this section. Use a Nail knot to attach the butt section to the line. Make the Butt section about 55% to 60% of the length of your longest dry fly leader.

If you are using a knotless tapered leader, attach the leader to the line with a nail not and forget the loop to loop connections, or like suggested above use a short piece of nylon nail knotted to the line with a loop on the bitter end.

It is always better IMHO to have the smallest, most inconspicuous knots in your leaders. Loop to loops therefore come off a poor substitute for a blood knot. I usually cut the loop from a knotless leader and use a blood knot to attach the leader to the stub attached to the line!

Try it I think that you'll like it.

Ol' Bill

Has anyone tried the Whitlock method? [IE, inserting the leader into the core of the flyline and Zap-a-Gap it in place.] It's what I use on my really light rods and rebuild the tippet section all summer actually. You can replace the entire leader next year [you only insert it 3/8" so you don't loose flyline to any extent] or you can cut it to 6" and knot a new leader on. If the overall length is an issue, just cut off 6" from the new leader![Just make sure you try to match the diameter of the 6" tag with the butt diameter of your leader.]

For rods where I will want to change leaders I still use the braided loop, but I get the loops from our local Orvis shop. It is NOT heat shrink - the tube which holds the braid in plase is very flexable, short and is super-glued into place. It does not add the extreme stiffness that the Cortland units do. I'm not sure, but I think it's an Orvis product. I would NEVER apply enough heat to shrink the Cortland loops to my flyline!
[I did try one of the Cortland loops once before I realizes it was heat-shrink. Cut it off and threw the rest of the package away. Never applied heat to it.]

Also, as already noted nailknoting a 6" length of leader to the flyline with a loop on the end also works.

Just seems there are many good options that don't require applying high heat to your flyline so why take a chance.

Donald

Beadleach,
I never have used it but will admit that it is better than what I use! I hope to try it next time!

Ol' Bill

Loop to loop joints in close sized mono should not create a hinge point of tightened well.
We have some "nail knotted to the line" butt sections. They work fine.
We also use some braided mono loops (home made) and we do NOT use heat shrink tubing. We use a nail knot (ONE) instead of the tubing and if we glue, we glue ONLY the nail knot so as not to inhibit the "finger sleeve" principle.
.....lee s.

snipe - I've only used it [the Whitlock splice] for the last year. The transition from flyline to leader is REALLY seamless. I matched the 3 wgt line to SA leaders [4X with .022 butt] and the loop as the line turned over was real pretty. Actually made me look as if I could really cast! It was much, much easier to make than I thought it would be.

Donald

Thanks all!!

I have one more question for all of you though.

I have seen were some of you are using a braided loop, like the Cortland one, and using a nail knot to secure it instead of heat shrink junk. What material / thread are you using to secure it to the line?

Thanks,

Reg

I've used the Whitlock loop method for over a year now and I really like it. Its worked on king salmon. I made up a bunch of sink tips from lc-13 using this method removing 6" of lead from each end and gluing loops but i dont recomend anyone attempt this. A whip finish loop would be much easier w/ this line.

I have used the short butt section with nail knot approach. Somewhere I was told to use mono with about 20lb breaking strain, which is very thick and creates a big knot. I recently saw a connection which uses a much thinner mono, which seems to slide through the guides better...any comments?

#4 - #10 mono gets used around here for the nail knots. A very small drop of pliobond, a bit of head cement, or a bitty drop of epoxy on the knot only, seems to smooth it out well.

I also use light mono to create a nail-knot over the loop. You might also check to see what size of loop you are using. You need to match them to the fly ine size. I have had problems when you get to the upper end of the range getting them onto the line. I recently purchased some custom tied 50lb loops from EBAY and I have been very pleased with them, They slid onto the line much easier than the commercially sold products.

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Fish more, work less!

A system I've used for years to size leader butts as follows: mike the end of the flyline, mult. by .70, and use that for your leader butt. It doesn't seem to bother the transfer of energy much if you're off by .002 or so.

Donald

If your using store-bought leaders with a loop already built in, the Castwell knot is easier than the loop-to-loop. Click on Features, then on Knots.

I usually build my own and nail-knot the butt section, but on the Bighorn this summer the guide wanted to use a store-bought nail-less leader due to the weeds.

I showed him the Castwell knot. He couldn't believe something that simple would hold. However, after landing a bunch of 18"+ fish (that river is truly amazing even if the number of fish is way down) including one 21" rainbow that was foul-hooked in the back and gave a 15 minute fight, he became a believer.

-Steven

Whoops. Should have read "store bought knot-less leader."

Sorry,

Steven

I started using the monobraided loops last year and had the same heat shrinking problem, too many burnt fly lines. They make a flexible glue to fix waders called 'plio bond' that I now use to glue the braids on now. I first read about it in LL beans fly fishing for stripers book. The author, who's name I can't remember, used braided mono tubes to fix damaged and cut sections of fly line. Those sea walls can be tough on the line. He would pull the tubes tight then add a liberal amount of plio bond over the whole thing. He claimed that because it was flexible it didn't affect his casts at all. Make sure if you do use glue that you snug the tube tight first.

The only problem that I have had is with both the heat shrink and pliobond the tip of the line where the braid is doesn't float as high as the rest of the line so the tip isn't as easy to see.

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Who has time for stress when there are fish to catch.
Nick

I use both a perfect loop and also whip a loop to the end of my fly lines with tying thread. Just make a small loop and wrap tying thread around the doubbled up line and then wrap thread perpendicular to thread wraps. It's worked on my 6 and 6 wt lines just fine. On my 3 wt I use a small perfect loop on both the line and all my leaders and have had no problems with this in the past few years. I use to use nailess nail knots all the time but the perfect works better IMO.

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To each there own !

Micro,
Have you tried using floatant on the braid? Someone told us this works. If you try it, let us know. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
......lee s.

Micro,
Another question. Doesn't applying pliobond to the whole splice negate the finger effect of the braid?
We have done similar to that with a piece of braid about 6"-8" long. It gets a nailknot at each end and pliobond on each knot and where the line ends meet in the middle only.
Just more fodder... http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

Lee

When I do my loops I only glue the half closest to the reel of it so the tip half can still Chinese torture the fly line. I always snug the braid really tight before I aply the glue anyway, so it is always in chinese torture effect.

It was in that book that I was talking about where the author lubed up the whole thing but he made sure to state to pull the braid tight first.

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Who has time for stress when there are fish to catch.
Nick

If you take the approach of exposing the core of the fly line and making a loop thereo, as per the link provided by no-tye-much, doesn't this create the problem of water absorbtion and therefore more sinking of the line?

I hope I have found the perfect loops - made by Rio, they include tubing that is not made to be heat shrunk on, but that is forced onto the line and braid and makes it immovable - they say. Haven't tried it yet, but it sure looks foolproof, and I haven't been able to pull it loose.