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What is the difference - other than price - between the Mustad "Signature" hooks and their "Standard" hooks? I'm asking about the trout fly models. Is it just that the Signatures have a micro barb, which I will mash down anyway, and the Standards don't?
Thanks,
Joe
Joe,
I'm fairly certain the Signature series is chemically sharpened. Maybe the metal formula for the wire is different or somewhat thinner?
Allan
Joe:
In addition to what Allen said; the big claim to fame with the Signature Series is; (from the Mustad catalog):
"Unparallel sharpness and strength"
"Exact proportional consistency resulting in precise scaling of fly patterns across each hook size range for a level of uniformity no other premium fly hook can guarantee".
They also have an alpha numeric code system for these hooks that simplifies figuring out what the model number refers to. By the way, all Mustad fly hooks are chemically sharpened.
Do yourself a favor and call or email Mustad and ask for a catalog. Their website leaves a lot to be desired. The new catalog is excellent with pictures of all the hooks they make; it is truly amazing and an excellent tool for choosing hooks. If you dabble in any other type of fishing besides fly fishing you?ll LOVE this catalog.
[url=http://www.mustad.no/:13d8b]http://www.mustad.no/[/url:13d8b]
[This message has been edited by Bamboozle (edited 05 September 2005).]
I emailed Mustad for their catalog. Thanks.
Concerning chemically sharpened hooks: I assume that they are sharper out of the box than those that are not sharpened chemically. Will they hold their sharpness longer? Should they still be sharpened before they are fished with, like everybody seems to recommend before you start tying flies with them? Or are all hooks chemically sharpened these days?
Just wondering.
Joe
Joe:
I BELIEVE all or most hooks are chemically sharpened. I don't have much of a problem with hooks I do have to sharpen getting dull quick. Usually the only reason a hook gets dull in most fishing is due to snags and the like. That usually results in a bend or break of the tip of the hook point that you re-dress back to a point.
As far as chemically sharpened hooks being sharper than non-chemically sharpened hooks I really don't know but I find that all of the premium hooks out there are bloody sharp as heck right out of the box. On occasion I check a random hook or two while tying with the old reliable fingernail test but I can?t remember the last time I felt the need to sharpen a hook on the bench. If I found my preferred brand to be dull out of the box I?d choose another brand. It?s a step in the fly tying process I don?t feel should be necessary with today?s technology and hooks although I?m positive some would disagree.
I almost always check hook sharpness streamside and touch up my hooks accordingly especially when nymph fishing or if I lose a fish. It justifies carrying that EZ Lap Hook Hone that I always have with me. Fussing streamside gives me more time to think why the fly I?m tying on and sharpening is not the right choice for the rising fish in front of me http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif.
All I can tell you about hooks is that I do a lot of fishing for largemouth bass with soft plastics which requires super sharp, tough hooks. ALL of the bass hooks out there made by the top manufacturers are super sharp, stay sharp, and are tough. I don?t believe the fly hooks they make would be that much different in quality.
[This message has been edited by Bamboozle (edited 06 September 2005).]
Hello Joe
Allow me to jump in and answer your question. I'm the guy here in North America responsible for all the Mustad and Partridge fly hooks and actually worked with my counterpart Geir Sivertzen (Dr. Hook) to develop the entire Signature range.
All the fly hooks in the "classic" range like the 3906B, 79580, 94840 and so on have what we refer to as a "cut point" (not a cutting point). A cut point is simply a hook point that is formed when the wire is cut at an angle. This gives you a point with decent sharpness and a very good price.
The Signature Series hooks offer much more than the classic hooks. Because of the increased production costs they are more expensive than the classics. So just what is different about them you ask . . .
1) The Signature series are the only proportionally correct fly hooks on the market . . . PERIOD http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif . This is to say that as you go up or down in size the wire diameter, hook gap and tying length increase, or decrease proportionally. So, if you love the size 22 in say the R50 model, you will like the size 2 just as much because it has the exact same proportions. No other hook company out there is offering this. Why is this important? Well, lets say that you are tying a small nymph on a size 16 hook. The hook performs well for you and you also want to tie the same pattern on a size 8 hook to imitate a Stonefly. Well, with most hooks out there, you may go to the size 8 and find that the tying length is not the same and now your fly is short and stubby or the gap is too narrow. The proper proportions on the Signature series eliminate that issue.
2) All the hook points within the Signature series are chemically sharpened premium points with micro-barbs. We utilize different point processes to guarantee that our points are very sharp and are more durable from one end of the size range to the other, compared to our competition. They offer the most durable premium points on the market today.
3) Quality control is a major issue with this range. While we certainly do our best to offer excellent quality classic hooks, the Signature series are produced on the latest equipment ensuring perfect eye closures and exceptional quality.
4) While the Signature hooks are certainly more expensive than our classic range, we are competitively priced compared to our premium competition and in cases like our stainless hooks, we are far more reasonably priced.
Just a few general comments on the hooks
As far as wire quality goes, we use the same high quality wire to produce all of our fly hooks. Mustad is the only hook manufacturer on the planet with our own wire drawing mill. This means that we control the quality of our hook wire from the very start unlike our competition who must buy wire from outside sources which can cause quality issues. If we have wire that just does not meet out standards, it ends up on our paperclip machines ??. Did you know that we are the only hook supplier out there that produces 100% of the hooks we sell? It??s true and that allows us to offer a quality product from one end of the range to the other. Ever take a look at some of the other hooks out there and see that there might be 3 different shades of bronze within one model number of a hook? This is because they are buying the hooks from different suppliers. While this is not necessarily a major issue, it certainly opens the door to quality issues. No, not all hooks produced are chemically sharpened. This does add cost to the process and therefore only premium hooks are typically chemically sharpened (actually called chemical polishing).
It is true that we have a new catalog that shows every hook we offer in actual size, Mustad and Partridge included. There are lots of great fly hooks out there that are not sold as such so it pays to look at the full range of products. Most every hook can be viewed on the Mustad website and by following the easy directions, you can print pages in actual size off the website.
Hope this helps answer your questions but let me know if there is anything else you want to know.
Now it's time to pack my bags and hop a plane to the Denver Fly Show this afternoon. Nope http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/frown.gif , no fishing for me on this trip.
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Dang it's nice to have someone like Jeff available to answer these types of questions!
I gotta say I have always liked the Mustad hooks, but that could be my Norwiegian heritage skuing things a bit. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif
The lates thing I have done is to take a tip from Jim Hatch and started using Aberdeen hooks for many flies in sizes 8 and larger. Not for everything, but that once I use up my other hopks, who knows.
Don
Glad to help Don http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
Jim is onto something there. Aberdeen hooks are GREAT for tying many types of flies. I've been using them for many streamer and saltwater applications. In fact . . . keep your eyes open for some net hooks coming soon . . . can you guess just what shape they might be http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif Could Jim be clairvoyant?
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
WOW!!
Dr. Fish;
What a wealth of very good info!
Thanks!! Your discription of the manufacturing process is great. Brought back memories of my 40 years in automotive manufacturing. Tight tolerances all the way.
I use Mustad hooks for most of my tying, now I know why!
One suggestion, if I may, Tiemco has this neat little magnet strip in their hook package that sort of controls the hooks.
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I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here!
Cactus AKA "Lucky Dog (Pirate Name)"
My big issue is that the sigs all hae closed eyes, nothing worse then a open eye http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
Jack,
But the magnets end up magnetizing the hooks. Not too bad with big hooks, but nothing is worse than a pile of tiny hooks stuck together. TMC still packs the 100 packs in that annoying wax paper!
I magnetize my scissors so that all I need to do is touch a hook with them to pick it up.
The Sig and FP hook boxes also make handy storage containers (eyes, beads..etc) when the hooks are gone. I also use them to ship flies.
*Bump*
In case Jeff missed my question while away.
- Gary
Jeff -
When you say the hooks are "proportionately correct" through the various sizes, does that include wire size (ie. the wire size of a 22 is smaller than an 20, which is smaller than an 18)?
- Gary
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"Catch 'em all ~ Put 'em back!"
Visit [url=http://www.warmwaterangler.net/forum:b4f64]Warmwater Angler[/url:b4f64].
[This message has been edited by Gary Miller (edited 12 September 2005).]
Hey Jeff,
Clairvoyant, no, I don't think so. But
frugal to a fault.*G* While some flies call
for and benefit from a specific hook style,
many can be tied on the aberdeens either in
standard or crappie lengths. My dremel bugs
lend themselves well to the hook. As always, appreciate your heads up on whats
happening in the hook world and will keep an
eye out for the new aberdeens. Warm regards, Jim
I have been using the Mustad Signature hooks. They are great hooks.
Jim,
Well now! sombody who admits to being FRUGAL prefers ABERDEEN hooks, I'll say no more.
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Donald/Scotland
Jeff,
Assuming you use the appropriate sized bead for the hook, what does Mustad recommend for a bead head nymph, a 1XL or a 2XL, if you want the body to be the same length as a non bead head nymph tied on a standard length nymph hook? I don't believe Mustad carries a 1XL nymph hook in your Signature series, but the 3906B is, I believe.
Thanks,
Joe
Hey Donald,
You've found me out buddy.*G* My
ancestors and yours were probably neighbors.
Warm regards, Jim
Hello Joe
Sorry for the delay. Just got back from the Denver Fly Show.
To answer your question here is what I do. If I'm tying flies on a standard length hook, I'll typically go 2X longer when I add a bead to try and keep the same proportions. Some may only go 1X longer but I prefer to go 2X longer. Just my two cents http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Dr. Fish (Jeff)
Has there been any discussion at Mustad of producing the Signature models in 100 packs?
Granted I love the little containers you package the hooks in but I hate buying in boxes of 25's at times. It is surely not the end of the world and I do know that 4 packs times 25 equals a hundred.
However...Do you think Mustad has a large enough following and demand for the 100's in order for it to be a possibility?
Is there a chart or something to tell what the Signature models are equal to in the Regular models?
We are looking at offering a 100 pack so stay tuned. As far as a conversion chart goes, try this one . . .
We don't have a printed conversion chart at this point but if you go here [url=http://www.mustad.no/products/premium/signature/signature1_1.html#:ad585]http://www.mustad.no/products/premium/signature/signature1_1.html#[/url:ad585]
and click on a hook pattern, it will tell you what classic model number (if any) it was developed from. We are working on a chart.
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
I'll second the request for packs of 100 hooks in the Signature line. Actually, I really miss the little, cardboard boxes of a gross...
Ed
And that's why Dr. Fish only does one show aday. Great question and a professional reply.
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If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." - Doug Larson
RockyMtnGuy,
I do love the signature hooks. But how did you ever figure out how to open those plastic boxes??? I have to rip the tips of my fingers off to open them *G*.
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Peter F
www.fishingwithflies.com
pfrailey@hotmail.com
Hello Peter
If they opened too easy you'd be picking up loose hooks off your desk and floor http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
Use your thumb to apply a bit of pressure to the top of the box, near the top of the label while using your index finger to pull out on the latch. The squeeze flexes the box lid just enough to help opening it.
Hope that helps http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Jeff,
How can the average joe, Get his hooks in 1000 packs...??..Or must you be a shop owner for this ...?
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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best
"Wish ya great fishing"
Bill
Mustad vs TMC...as an average tier/fisherman, not a commercial boy by any stretch, I"ve been a TMC guy from my beginning FF'ing.
Back in my walleye days and when I go back into my warm water tackle box, my Mustads seem to have terribly DULL hooks. This is why I was amazed with the tMC's. Hence the switch.
But, since Mustad has come out with this sig. series I've been turning more n' more to Mustads. Why? Because I noticed a long time ago that TMC's tend to get "nicked" on the tip easier than do Mustads...who seem to be much harder steel.
Just my personal observations...and I've been a TMC guy a long time.
Jeremy.
I started using the signature because I don't go through hooks that fast and they are at a good price.
Thanks for thegreat feedback Jeremy
It brought a smile to my face http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
For what it's worth, we are launching a new point technology on our classic hooks that it quite impressive.
Your comments also speak to what I have termed "effective sharpness." I have been using this term for quite a while when discussing premium hook points. What good does a scary sharp point do for you when it rolls over or dulls as soon as you start fishing it. Sharpness out of the package is important BUT just how long it stays sharp is really what is critical.
BILL - To answer your question, we do offer bulk packs of many of our fly hooks. Dealers can order them via their distributor without a problem. IF they tell you they cannot . . . the really mean they will not or do not want to take the time to do so (for the most part).
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Jeff -
I posted this question earlier in the thread, but I think you were out of town at the time and probably missed it.
When you say the hooks are "proportionately correct" through the various sizes, does that include wire size (ie. the wire size of a 22 is smaller than an 20, which is smaller than an 18)?
Thanks.
- Gary
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"Catch 'em all ~ Put 'em back!"
Visit [url=http://www.warmwaterangler.net/forum:7942b]Warmwater Angler[/url:7942b].
Has anyone used the Mustad SL53U BL Salmon hooks and can anyone tell me where I can buy them?
Bill
[This message has been edited by wsbailey (edited 24 September 2005).]
Gary-- I'll step in for Jeff, although he's the authority, and I'm only the guy with the catalog. The hooks are built with "exact proportional consistency" according to the book. Since one of the measures in the Signature series is wire diameter, I'd say that yes, the wire does change diameter by hook size if it's supposed to. In other words, the wire in a standard diameter #18 will be of larger diameter than a standard wire #20.
As for the new Mustad salmon hooks, I've got some but haven't used them yet. That day is fast approaching, though. They're everything the Signature line of hooks promises...nice tapered eye, sharp point-- a good looking hook.
As you can tell, I like the Signature hooks...as much as I like the new Partridge hooks. And I'll admit it-- I'm biased. I've been very impressed by both brands and see little need to go elsewhere.
Keith
I've been FF'ing for several years, since about 1960 or thereabouts, and few things impress me, among those are Mustad hooks, Dorber rods, and my wife....*G*
The SL53U BL is an awesome hook, as are all of he Signature series hooks I have used. I have to get meself some more. But you know, I still use the Classics a ton with no issues.
You guys really need to look into the Partridge Flashpoints also...some advanced hookpoint technology in our midts, especially for the lovers of manufactured barbless hooks.
Keith..I have a catalog too ! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
I have thoroughly searched the internet and I still can't find a supplier for the Mustad SL53U BL Salmon hooks. Any Suggestions? Bill
[This message has been edited by wsbailey (edited 25 September 2005).]
Hello Gary
Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. I finally managed to get out of the office and chase some Steelhead and Chinook for a change http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif Yup, the arms are sore, thank you very much.
The answer is YES, the wire diameter is one of the proportional elements within the series. THe others are tying length and hook gap. THe wire diameter will change accordingly as you go up or down in size.
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Hello Bill
I'm not sure who off hand is stocking the SL53U BL BUT I can promise you that Chris Helm at Whitetail Fly Tying Supplies can take care of you on those. IF you don't have it, his number is 800-579-5549 or 419-843-2106.
I have also asked the Mustad rep for your area to let me know if he has any dealers close to you as well.
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Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Peter,
Maybe Dr. Fish will do a video showing you the proper procedure of opening a box of Mustad Signature Hooks and load it onto the Mustad website for easy reference before each tying session!
<VeryBigGrin> http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
All kidding aside, I've never really had a problem opening them.
Another plus to the containers is that you can easily stash them in a tying kit without fear of them opening on their own.
[This message has been edited by RkyMtnGuy (edited 26 September 2005).]
Dr. Fish,
At the risk of being in the dumb question category...
If the wire size gets proportionately lighter as the hook gets smaller does the hook become more likely to bend?
Thanks Keith and Jeff for your replies regarding wire size of the various hook sizes. Maybe I'm just overly anal retentive, but I like everything to be in the proper proportions.
I'll be trying the Signature line soon.
- Gary
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"Catch 'em all ~ Put 'em back!"
Visit [url=http://www.warmwaterangler.net/forum:22de3]Warmwater Angler[/url:22de3].