Foam for some of your surface traditionals?

Who besides me is using foam for some traditional surface flies? Recently I've been using foam for bodies on Deer Hair Caddis (normally calls for dubbed body) and for bodies and heads on Dave's Hoppers among others. I am using the 2mm closed cell sheet foam (like Darice Foamies) for most of these.

It just seems to me like some dry flies might float better or dryer with the addition of some foam for the bodies. Your thoughts?

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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL

"Flip a fly"

[This message has been edited by dixieangler (edited 19 September 2005).]

Hey Robert,

Guilty Sir!*G* I've taken to adding a
bit of foam to many of my topwater flies.
Some using shaped bits of foam from the
dremel lathe and others using cut bits of
foam as you describe. I guess however that
the addition of the foam removes said fly
from the "traditional" designation and into
the realm of the "unknown"!*G* But the
ability of the foam to float all day long
without the addition of floatants or Flyagra
is a big plus for me. Warm regards, Jim

Foam ... hmms, haven't - yet .... sounds quite feasible though. Could cut it small enough if one wants to dub over it I suppose.

I have been guilty of adding hollow-hair (ie/ polar bear) to my size 16 and 18 parachutes for added floatation support. I lay these along the base wrap and head on from there (covers them up). As I tye them to sit in the film, they tend to take on water easily enough - and .... PB hair helps keep them there. I can see myself trying foam next .....

Hey Darrell,

It works best on larger flies though I
have done humpy style flies down to a #20.
Dubbing over the foam can compress it
elimating the air bubbles that provide the
floatation. Warm regards, Jim

I think gummie minnows are an abomination but a bit above scenting flys or using C4 plastique as a strike putty type "indicator".

JC,

I think your bottom line question is:

"At what point do you(or some authority) draw the line between a 'fly' and a 'lure'?"

- Surface or subsurface?
- Weighted or unweighted?
- The use of scent?
- Fished dead drift, stripped, trolled, etc.?
- Except for hook and thread, is there a maximiumn ratio of natural to synthetic material?
- One hook or tandem?

Personally, I'll stick to what one Supreme Court Justice(I think) said about pornography, 'I may not know what it is but I'll know it when I see it'.

Allan

I've been using foam for "non-traditional" dry flies for years now. They have specific uses most of the time for either very fast or very dirty water. The two main flies I do with foam are White Flies for the Susquehanna and Elk Wing Caddis for small mountain streams with fast water. In both cases the added flotation helps.

I buy cylindrical foam and cut it to the length of the body or hook shank. Then using a razor blade I slit the foam length-ways, halfway through the cylinder diameter. I then slip the foam cylinder over the hook shank with the slit opening on the bottom of the hook and rib with tying thread; voila, instant foam body. From there I build the rest of the fly the normal way. I also do extended bodies the same way.

I get my cylindrical foam from Bill Skilton:
[url=http://www.billskilton.com:e9d4a]http://www.billskilton.com[/url:e9d4a]

If 50% fake is anyone's criteria for a lure than color me a lure fisherman. My White Fly spinners are made with a Fibbette tail, foam body, and a poly wings. The dun version only has natural hackle. Beetles, bees and inchworms are 100% fake too.

In Pennsylvania the banned flies on FFO waters are molded facsimiles of bugs or baitfish. Normally constructed flies "wound about the hook" are legal and that definition suits me fine.

Hey JC,

Good questions! In no particular order,
my answers are no, yes, sometimes and never.

That said, I "personally" would not
distinguish between a fly and a lure. They
are both constructed of non natural (to the
bait they imitate) materials. Anything
that imitates a bug or other live prey, is
an artificial. Matters little whether you
call it a fly or a lure. It's still a man
made creation designed to lead the poor fish
to an early demise, or a sore jaw at best.
IMHO, the question should be, "Is it alright
to fool a fish for personal gain?"*G* My
answer would be a resounding YES!*G* Warm
regards, Jim

Isn't a fly just a type of lure that uses the weight of the line to cast it not its own weight?

I have some flies that are heavier than ultralight jigs for spinning gear. Does that constitute that they are not flies? I use them in flyfish only water to get those bucketmouths that nobody fly fishes for that eat all those flat nosed stocker trout. I found out an 8wt isn't appreciated on trout ponds.

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Who has time for stress when there are fish to catch.
Nick

Quote:

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Isn't a fly just a type of lure that uses the weight of the line to cast it not its own weight?

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> They
are both constructed of non natural (to the
bait they imitate) materials. Anything
that imitates a bug or other live prey, is
an artificial. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great reply, Nick. Jim's description of an artificial also. If I can cast an artificial on my spinning gear and can't on my fly rod (usually due to the weight of the artificial versus the line weight) then to me its a lure. If I can cast an artificial on my fly rod and can't on my spinning gear (usually due to the weight of the artificial versus the line weight) then to me its a fly.


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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL

"Flip a fly"



[This message has been edited by dixieangler (edited 19 September 2005).]

JC, Is Our Fly Of the week,Not a fly at all...???

And those god awful Chernoble ants..what of those things.....Not trying to be a smart A** at all...Just think on a plane that makes me not carry some flies...and NO.....I am way far from a purist of any kind......I do use foam...and am not ashamed of it...But I will say I have used it for dry fly bodies....on more than one pattern....and have done quite well...

This thread does pose many a good question....and you your self have asked some of the very ones that ran through my head while reading it......and I'll try and follow this one.....

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

Dixie,

I've been doing this for a while.

Right now, I'm playing with taking Jim's 'dremel bug' type lathe and turning really small bodies for dries on it. If you use a sewing machine needle in the mandrel, you can get a really small hole.

I can use a loop of thin mono to pull the tailing material into the back end for the tails. So far it makes a nice extended body on hooks down to size 18 or so.

Can't get the bodies much smaller yet, but I'm honing my skills....

Good Luck!

Buddy

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[url=HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML:dde80]HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML[/url:dde80]

Semantics...Semantics...Semantics

Maybe we should be called ...insectfisherman...insecttyers......insectrod... insectreel

Hhmmm...there's room for some more usernames...

Quote:

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I can use a loop of thin mono to pull the tailing material into the back end for the tails. So far it makes a nice extended body on hooks down to size 18 or so.

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Buddy,

That's sounds pretty good especially for adult mayfly, dragonfly, and damselfly patterns. I think I get the idea but would like to see an example. Does the material stay in the extended tail after insertion or do you need to superglue it in? Any photos?


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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL

"Flip a fly"



[This message has been edited by dixieangler (edited 19 September 2005).]

Robert,

I glue the tails in. Mostly I'm using thin mono for the mayfly type tails.

I pull a double loop into the tail end of the body with a drop of superglue to hold them in place. Then cut to length and cut out the 'extra' tail piece. I bend them into position using a heated rod (bodkin will work-takes some practice to get this part right). Color the tails with a permanent marker, they look great on the water.

Good Luck!

Buddy

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[url=HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML:3a786]HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML[/url:3a786]

thanks Jim - I tye the PB hair in loose wraps to prevent buckling - can't see foam being too much different. I just look for a little extra floatation support - not a lot.

re: the lure / fly ..... my plug (all in open discussion) http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif 1) simply, if its on the end of my fly line - its a fly 2) if fly patterns were restricted to those tied centuries ago when fly fishing evolved - our pattern selection would be miniscule. Through centuries and evolution there is (must be) umpteen thousand fly patterns out there now (if anyone ever took time to log them all). A lot of materials commonly used nowadays (antron, poly, chenille, flash, tinsel, genetic hackle) wasn't about ages ago - does this make their use wrong - no. It just evolves and expands the material choices we have and flies we can tye / use.
If fly fishers get concerned about a fly pattern becoming classified a lure (tied materials, or weight) ...... I think there was a thread somewhere about snobbery. Can this all best be left to choices ? or are we relegated to classifying everything, making things more complicated, and discouraging newcomers with more rules ?

Re : initial Q from Robert ("traditional surface flies") - might it be more appropriate to remove 'traditional' from the term - and replace with .... something else ? Traditional (ooooh, another can opening here) is same-ole, same-ole throughout the ages (fine by me). Deviating from the same-ole .... is evolution - you're not traditional any more.

guess I shouldn't note that I use nymph hooks on a dry pattern to put them down in the film .... http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

I tie some mayfly patterns using foam. Smallest I've been able to do is a size 14. One thing I have noticed with craft store foam is that it will absorb water, and at some point the fly will sink. Any one else notice this. I've taken to treating the foam bodies with Water Shed and this has helped.

Quote:

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Philly:One thing I have noticed with craft store foam is that it will absorb water, and at some point the fly will sink. Any one else notice this. I've taken to treating the foam bodies with Water Shed and this has helped.

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Can't say I ever had that problem. That's one of the reasons I love fishing my foam beetles, I never have to re-dress them just re-cast to the next fish; slime and all!

I did discover by accident with some failed foam inchworms, that just like with life preservers; if the hook is too large for the amount of foam applied the buoyancy of the foam can't overcome the weight of the hook.

As a result I often downsize the hook size when the amount of foam used is small; it helps.

I have been told by a number of tiers that the foam you can buy at craft stores is not always closed cell foam and it will absorb water. Some of it is closed cell, but some is not. I guess you just have to be careful.
Joe

Hey Joe,

When or if I am ever in doubt, I just give the foam (flies too for that matter) the water test in the sink http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif (sometimes squeezing is necessary). Open-cell foam sinks and does look like closed-cell foam that floats. Open-cell usually (not always) has large open pores rather than the small closed pores usually (not always) found with closed-cell foam. Even on close inspection, I still make mistakes on which is which at times so you are right, I have to be careful. But both kinds have their uses so if I pick the wrong kind, I can still use it http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/biggrin.gif.


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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL

"Flip a fly"

Philly,
I won't buy the soft foam popper heads for that very reason.

I still use the hard foam heads...and prolly always will..

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill