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I have been trying to sample all the main name brand hackle suppliers ( on my college budget) And recently baught a Whiting herbert minor neck, I found the barbs to not be very stiff at all compared to my Collins hackle and sold it. But I constantly hear people back whiting and how great there hackle is, Is there regular line of hackle any stiffer than the Herbert Minor?
Thanks for any help
Doug
Doug,
Whiting has "basically" two different types of birds...There are several others but for the most part there are the Hebert Miner and the American stock (which came from Hoffman). The Hebert Miner birds are OK (middle of the road in my opinion) but the quality in the American stock or the actual "Whiting" brand is far superior. If your tying dry flies I would bypass the Hebert Miner birds and Opt for the other. Denny at Conranch also has nice quality hackle (reasonable price too!)
Hope this helps,
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John G.
Albuquerque, NM
Just check out the link you provided.
Not knocking the guy but his prices seem right in-line with Metz and Whiting.
whiting 100's
J Castwell,
Why was my reply removed? Cant you handle facts?
Im sorry this post has seemed to cause a disturbance, But if you read my question I wasn't looking for a comparision between whiting and anyone else I just wanted to hear a response from fly tiers who have tried the two types of hackle mentioned and get thier opinions.
And the reason I have a limited budget is because Im trying to atleast sample all the major brands of hackle to form my own opinions. And yes I will be trying COnranch in the future.
Doug
The Hebert Miner line of hackle is but one "breed" of bird that Whiting offers. The main line being just plain "Whiting". The Hebert line is characterised by lower fiber density(not as many barbs per inch), true natural colors, and somewhat larger sized feathers and barb lengths, as well as softer barbs. The Whiting line, however, is what you have probably been hearing about. Whiting hackles have an amazingly dense fiber per inch ratio,stiff barbs, long, thin feathers and a variety of sizes on a neck. The only downsides I've seen is that they need to dye many of the colors, rather than getting them from the bird naturally, although, I actually prefer their dyed dun necks to the natural tones, as they are much more consitent.
The (Whiting) "American" line of birds are bred for larger, webbier feather more suitable for bass and saltwater flies, and are really pretty useless for dry flies.
I'm sure Conranch offers some nice stuff too, but I don't like to buy feather sight unseen...
Hope this helps,
Charlie
I can't talk about Conranch. I can talk about Whiting 100 packs, necks, and saddles. I love the Whiting ( not Hebert Minor Hoffman yada yada yada ) for small dry flies (16 to 24). I don't like the color of the dun, but the fish don't seem to care. The 100s are great, VERY easy to tie with, no twisting, small stems, dense hackle. As Charlie will attest, I've bought a lot, and will buy more. For the tying I do, it's the ultimate. For 16 and larger, other brands seem to work just fine. Metz had quite a problem with twisting, but things have been better of late I think. I know Denny has some very interesting colorations, Cree, etc. It depends on what you're tying.
Eric
That is actually one thing I have been worrying about with buying whiting, the dense barb count, Im tying classic catskill dries which I prefer a little sparse I dont want my flies to look to thick and densly hackled, I have tried whiting 100's and didn't like the way my flies looked.
Should I stick with a different brand, will whiting hackle come out looking like to much?
Thanks for any help
Doug
This article discusses the history of hackle, including Catskill breeds and should help you decide which brands to investigate.
[url=http://www.flyfisherman.com/ftb/sshackle/:be84a]http://www.flyfisherman.com/ftb/sshackle/[/url:be84a]
"...The most important genetic work of the early period of hackle raising in the United States came from Catskill fly tier Harry Darbee, who produced the best available stock of the day...Darbee was well known for his generosity and sent eggs to enthusiasts around the country. One recipient, Minnesota lawyer Andy Miner, received stock from both Chip Stauffer...and Darbee..."
"...In 1997, Whiting Farms purchased Ted Hebert's stock, a breed Dr. Whiting feels has more development potential than Hoffman and will provide the greatest genetic advancements in the coming years. Whiting is keeping this bloodline "pure" and selling it as Hebert-Miner Dry Fly Hackle. While Whiting Dry Fly Hackle is derived from the Hoffman bloodline, this product connects Whiting with the Catskill bloodlines of Darbee and Miner."
"...Collins feels that his hearty strain of mountain-bred bird is not only truer to the backyard breeders of the Catskill era,..."
[This message has been edited by classicflytyer (edited 05 May 2005).]
If you want them to look like the old Catskill type of flies then use neck hackle. Dosen't matter which breeder they pretty much will all look the same when finished.
But I would be willing to bet a 100 against a plug nickle that the old Catskill tiers would have been right in there using the hackle we have today and that includes saddles from Whiting and other growers. Good hackle is good hackle I don't care who grows it. Give credit were it is do and just think the good Lord and the growers that we have the hackle we do today.
I have one of Harry's Blue dun capes that I bought from him many many years ago. I saved it just to have it. It cost me $4.00 I believe which was a lot in those days. It will tie down to size 12's with a few 14's but not many. But the hackle is beautiful and stiff a rusty dun color. And no it is not for sale http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif Ron
Thanks agian for all the replys I guess the only thing I can really do is try it all and see what I like best, my next purchase will be a half grizzly half brown from whiting.
Thanks agian for the help.
Classic, thanks for the link I think it answered my questioned on which hackle would be best for catskill dries.
Thanks
Doug
im just reading this post for the first time, but i have to say classicflytyer, you totally missed the point of jc's post. he was saying that the way denny handles business is like no other. denny puts his name and reputation before making money. he doesn't sell to fly shops, and therefore can hand grade every neck and saddle that he sells. he takes great care in giving the customer what they want, and will even raise a bird, like cree birds, for a specific person if needed. The fact that the price may be the same is really a good deal, given the benefits that you get. now, i honestly have to say that i have never bought a dry fly neck or saddle from denny, but i have never bought one from any one else either, because all i tie are saltwater and bass flies. But from what i have heard about him, and the fact that he is a sponsor on FAOL, i have to say that Denny sounds like a real stand up guy and a pleasure to do business.
you guys are aruging about chicken fur...
phatkid248, your observations about Denny are right on!
I tie both fresh and saltwater flies and get more use out of a Conranch saddle than any other because it's not just the saddle with the long hackle cut away from all the other feathers. It has the softer feathers from the side plus the schlappen included. The full skins are so great for a variety of feathers. Can you imagine the amount of saltwater feathers you'd get from a full hen skin? I love the spade hackle below the cape. Lots of extra feathers for saltwater and bass flies on all the Conranch skins. His natural colors are as spectacular as his service! About the only died color I use is olive and the next time I need any olive colors I will try dying some of his honey and chocolate dun colors with Lime KoolAid. I haven't tried it but I think it will make great olive.
If you call Denny and tell him what kind and size of flies you want the feathers for and what colors you need he will tell you exactly what he has to offer to suit your needs. At the very least, you will have a great conversation and learn a lot about hackle from a true expert!
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Joe
With everything I've read the Whiting herbert minor is more of a wet fly hackle than dry fly which could be why you don't find the barb density very stiff.
Their regular line is much stiffer than the herbert line and ties some very nice flies.
I've tried conranch, whiting, spenser, collins, metz, hoffman and docs and they are all very nice hackle. Denny at Conranch used to have JV rooster skins for tying small dries and they were sweet.
If you can get good deals and save by sales or clearance check the hackle out, open it and feel it (if the shop you're in won't let you do this find another shop) you'll get the sense of touch if the barbs have good stiffness to them.
Others will swear one brand of hackle is better over another but only YOU can determine what is the best hackle for your tying needs and what fits into your budget.
Since you're trying them all as you already stated you'll come to your own conclusions as to what is best for you. I know the constraints of budgets, if you have a buddy who also ties each of you could buy a cape or saddle and then split them in half and you'd each have two different colors.
Hope this helps,
Fatman
Ewing Feather Birds is also a good source,and they have a line that sizes small pieces of necks in the small 22 down med 20-18 and large16-12 pretty nice way to buy some neck hackle's that are'nt used often or for budget minded indivdual's who tie only for themselves,Love whiting.and others.I won't buy any hackle that I can't hold in my hand from anyone,or any other material for that matter"natural"that is.Unless I have no other recourse,been buying most of my hackle from a friend who is been raiseing birds in PA for the last 10-12 years so big brands are'nt that important to me these days,and I feel that most of them are getting hackles that are to stiff for my likeing nowadays.the stiffer hackles pierce the surface film far easier in todays genetics..
just my own lil thoughts not start'in noth'in.....
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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best
"Wish ya great fishing"
Fatman- Sorry I can't agree with you on the Hebert Capes. I was buying capes and feathers from Ted Hebert and his wife way before he ever sold out to Whiting and his capes are dry fly quilty. Bill Hunter use to sell them and I tied for him for sometime. I use to send Ted's wife money for her kids and they would pick all the spade feathers for me to use for tailing. They would send me a big bad of feathers and I would send them $20.00 or so and they were happy and so was I. Still got a bunch of it left.
The fellow that posted this may have gotten a bad cape? It can happen with any grower. Someone may have missed graded it. But I have probably 20 Hebert capes that are fine dry fly capes. Ted got some neat colors that I have not seen other growers come up with. But I do not think many would grow those colors to start with. I have a half Dun and half Brown that is real neat.
Like you, over the last 40 plus years of tying for a living I have used just about all growers at one time or another. I use to buy from Henry Hoffman before he sold out to Whiting. Use to buy a lot of his 4's and 5's from him and they were great for tying. But I can't agree with you on Hebert Capes they are dry fly capes all the way. Unless you get one that was misgreaded which can happen or maybe a Hen cape by mistake? Ron
I totally agree with Ron. Hebert hackle is great stuff. I can't really tell the difference between Whiting and Hebert, besides that you get more smaller hackles with Whiting and the barb density is a little better, but not always.
I'm holding a Whiting Bronze grade neck and a Hebert Pro grade neck and to be honest I can't see a difference between the two except that the Whiting has longer feathers per size and smaller sizes. Period
As for Classic Catskill Dries , Mary Dette uses mostly OLD Metz and Hebert/Minor capes supplementing with Whiting and Indian necks.
Take Care, Jim
Ron,
Actually I can't disagree with you on it cause the Hebert minor's are one's I haven't tried only read about. Might be time to take another look.
Thanks,
Fatman