Ok..What am I doing wrong..

I think it's a timing issue..but longer lines don't solve the issue..which is line coil piles..Lol gotta be a timing issue..
Well I do know I need more practice..n prolly flatter water for it..n not exploring new waters while getting the hang of things.. but that all said..I seemed to be doing better with the lighter line n shorter length..was about the length of the rod with it at its shortest setting.. opinions words of wisdom? I'll take anything you got..even tried.n it seemed to help a bit...a yarn indicator...go ahead..let me have it.. lol
Was not getting any knots mind you.. should I be using flouro tippet n not mono? That a big deal..I think I need to order a furled line or two n try n work down from there.. thoughts on that...?

One possibility is that the coils are in the line from being stored on the reel.. Have you straightened it?

Easy part - mono vs fluoro tippet shouldn't make any difference in casting. I use both and don't notice any difference.

Hard part - line coils? Could you explain a bit more?

Is your line twisting up and tangling? or

Is the line curled on the water after the cast? not fully unrolling and landing straight?

Take a look at this Discover Tenkara article and watch the video that shows the "fly first" cast.
http://eat-sleep-fish.co.uk/content/2013/01/discover-tenkara

and read Jason Klass's Western vs Tenkara Casting - Different Strokes:

http://www.tenkaratalk.com/2012/03/w...erent-strokes/

My guess is you are probably correct. You have a timing issue.
( this assumes by coiling you meant the line is just piling up on the ground or water not far from the rod tip, and not fully extending. If instead you meant the line is coiling due to memory from being wound on the line spool, then you need to learn to get most of the coil memory out of the line by stretching the line. )

My view is
- shorter lines are easier to cast than longer lines.
- heavier lines are easier to cast than lighter lines.
- tapered lines are easier to cast than level lines. Either mono or furled.
- on the back cast. Stop at 12:00, pause for a moment to give the line time to extend rearward a bit before starting the forward cast.
- make your back cast a little faster than the forward cast.
- stop the forward cast at about 2:00 or 2:30. Not an abrupt stop, like you hit a mechanical stop. Rather like a quick deceleration, like you want to stop the forward motion in the shortest distance possible before hitting an imaginery mechanical stop.
- don't start your forward casting motion to abruptly,with to much power. make the forward cast at a steady linear increase of acceleration rate.
* don't think about the last 3 points to much. Just keep them as secondary background thoughts, your subconscious will figure out how to apply them during casting practice. At least that is my theory.

(it takes time to develop fast enough line speed to cast a light line. A heavier line can be cast properly with a lower line speed than a lighter line)
I also believe the speed of the tip of a longer rod is faster than the tip speed of a shorter rod. Therefore, I think if you have a zoom rod, you will find it easier to get faster line speed with the rod at full extension. Getting proper line speed with the rod at the shorter lenght will come with practice.

I consider a short line to be a line that is about the same length of the rod or a little shorter.
And a long line to be a line that is 4 feet or more longer than the rod.

I like to watch this video of Masami Sakakibara casting a 12meter tapered line.
The time period to cast a shorter line will be shorter, but the sequence of the timing - backcast, stop, pause, forward cast, stop, will be the same.

Notice the speed of his back cast, the pause before starting the forward cast. The deceleration and stop on the forward cast. Think about that motion and timing during your practice casting.
(it may also help to do a bit of side casting during your practice. When side casting you can see the line extend on the back cast and only start the forward cast when the line has extened rearward enough. It doesn't have to be fully extended, but close, especially in the begininng. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalWBL9iuf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalWBL9iuf4

Part of the trick when the timing is correct is, I believe, you start the forward cast when the tip of the rod is still flexed rearward a little, then on the forward cast the rod tip will flex forward when you stop the forward cast motion, and when the tip continues to move forward it will put power into the line to propel the line forward to full extension.

When you can cast a short line to your satisfaction, and want to try casting a longer line. You can first try casting a longer line of the same weight or size you were using before. If you can't get it to cast properly after a little practice. Try casting a heavier line at the new longer length. The heavier line won't need as much line speed as the lighter line. For example switch from a #3 line to a #4 line.

All that being said. I also believe that trying to cast a longer line, even when your casting is not yet very good, helps you develop a sensitivity to the line, and what it is doing to the rod tip, that you just won't develop casting a short light line. Casting a longer line will magnify improper technique. And what that reveals may help you improve your technique casting a shorter line. When I thought my casting wasn't as good as it should be. I found that after trying and failing to cast a 6 meter line very well for 30 minutes. When I immediately followed that by switching back to a shorter line. The muscle memory from trying to cast the 6m line, had slowed down my cast, improved my pause timing, and my casting of the 4 m line was better. Therefore, I really recommend learning to cast a short line half way decently, there after. Practice casting a longer line for 15 - 30 minutes. Then immediately practice casting a shorter line.

I think casting in the yard is ok for a lot of your practice. But I also think its better if you can cast into water. I think the drag on the line as it is lifted from the water helps to load the rod (that is flex the rod) thereby adding some line speed during your back cast.

2? from a self taught tenkara caster.

Good luck.

D

Fantastic post D!

I really like the tip on practicing with a longer line. A short line is easy to cast, so you can get away with some poor technique. The long line will force you to learn proper technique. I don't fish long lines much, but I'll practice with one, now.

When I moved to a light level line, I noticed the same thing. I had to up my game and improve my casting technique.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Norikane

Fantastic post D!
I really like the tip on practicing with a longer line. .. The long line will force you to learn proper technique. I don't fish long lines much, but I'll practice with one, ....

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Thanks Bruce. My theory may be OTL ( out to lunch). I have recieved some resitance to the idea that practice casting long lines is a good thing to do. Practicing with lines longer than you will actually fish with. I'm a little on the fence about saying it might be better to start learning to cast with a long line, before trying to cast a shorter line. On the theory that your intial casting with a short line might teach poor technique from the beginning that might be difficult to unlearn. But not being able to start over myself, because I started learning to cast with a short line. It's hard to say if starting to learn to cast with a line several feet ( 4 or 5 ft) longer than the rod is a good idea or not. Maybe I could test the theory if I had someone who wanted to learn to cast. Starting with a heavier line of #4.5 or #5 might help the learning process too before going to a lighter line of # 3 or # 3.5.

If you look at this video showing kids fishing at a fish pond. Where the fish are hungery and easy to catch. Most of the children appear to be using lines that are 4 - 6 feet longer than the rod. Most of them do fairly well casting. So I don't think it's their first time casting the line. In some cases the adults help them cast, and land the fish. But the lines appear to be quite a bit longer than the rods. Though it's possible the lines just look that long in the video. btw , Dr Ishigaki is one of the adults instructing the children.

The title translates as something like First Parent Child Tenkara Experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi-F64vWPI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi-F64vWPI

Of course on some streams short lines are the best or only way to fish. Long lines the choice in other places. And some people choose either short or long lines all the time.
I practice casting lines of 7, 8, 10 meters. I do pretty well with 7. Ok with 8. Not very well at all with a 10 meter line. 80% of the time I fish with a line 4.5m, 5m or 5.5m.
Once in a while a 4m or shorter line or 6m line. A few times just to see how it worked out a 7m line, just because I have learned to cast one decently. However, it seems like I catch more fish with a line of 4.5 or 5m. Pluse tippet. Most of the time I only fish with a longer line on wide rivers. Because I can see subsurface structure where fish might be sheltering or I can see fish jumping just a little to far for me to reach with a shorter line. Either fishing from the bank or wading and the middle of the river is to deep to wade into to reach the fish seen on the far side.

David

Thanks guys.. n yes my cats are consistently ending with the last few ft of line in coils on the water..not really engaging the leader in the graceful turn over I'm so used to seeing in my casting..I'll work on it with a longer line..after the shorter lines cast this way I didn't even want to attempt my 20 footer lol
I guess I should have tried it anyway!

Hi Bill - definitely sounds like something in your cast, but just to rule out equipment.

hmm, how long is your rod, your line and your tippet?

what line are you using?

What fly are you casting?

Rod was dragontail Hellbender 13-11' zoom rod.. really nice rod!
Line was 15 ft of tusa 4.5 Orange level
5'of 5x mono
Sz14 hares ear and sz12 kebari only weight on the grhe was the gold rib of brass beading wire..
Which is why it's gotta be me.. this rod is rated a 7:4 and should not have probs delivering unless the off factor is me...

I am going to order a couple furled lines from dragontail prolly their komoto rod as well.spare tips for both..ect.ect... As you can tell I've no intention of giving up on this.. I know tenkara can n will work for me! Especially with some more favorable weather lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by billknepp

Rod was dragontail Hellbender 13-11' zoom rod.. really nice rod!
Line was 15 ft of tusa 4.5 Orange level
5'of 5x mono
Sz14 hares ear and sz12 kebari only weight on the grhe was the gold rib of brass beading wire..
Which is why it's gotta be me.. this rod is rated a 7:4 and should not have probs delivering unless the off factor is me...

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Sounds like a perfect setup.

I shouldn't speculate on your cast, as that rod is quite different from anything that I've cast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by billknepp

Rod was dragontail Hellbender 13-11' zoom rod.. really nice rod!
Line was 15 ft of tusa 4.5 Orange level
5'of 5x mono
Sz14 hares ear and sz12 kebari ...

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I am not familiar with the Dragontail Hellbender rod other than to know it exist.
15 ft ( 4.5 meters) of No. 4.5 line is a heavy line, and I would think it would be easier to cast than say a No. 3 line of the same length
.
5 ft (1.5m) of 5x tippet might not roll out and fully extend with to low a line speed. But from your description it's not your tippet that is piling up , it's the entire line. I think it must be a timing problem. Or a problem with the speed you are moving the rod.

I would recommend you start with the line laying straight out in front of you on the ground. Starting your back cast from there may help to load the rod for the back cast. So that the rod will flex properly to add power to the forward cast. To keep the fly hook from catching on the grass I would just replace it with a short piece of bright color yarn, not to long so it won't have any more wind resistance than a fly.

It has been stated that the power for the forward cast comes from the back cast. It is important to to think about wanting the line during the back cast to go up at about 45 degrees, not straight back. Then on the forward cast the line is thrown forward and downward at 45 degrees. At least that is how I think about it.

This 4 minute video from Daiwa might be helpful. The naration is in Japanese, but the video is of pretty good quality, you can see the line fairly well. And the graphics put on top of the video shows the casting angle of the rod you should be aiming to duplicate. It is a video showing how to get started Tenkara fishing. So the first 2 mintues just point out you need Rod, Line, Tippet aka Leader and a fly. In Japanese called a Kebari.
The casting instruction is only the last 2 minutes of the video.

The man in the video is Katayama Etsuji ( 片山悦司さん) He is a Field Tester for Daiwa, and it is my understanding that he develops the Level Line Tenkara rods for Daiwa. The Tenkara set up he recommends is shown in the first half of the video. He recommends a 3 to 4 meter rod. A level line length of Rod Lenth + 1.5 meters of No. 3 line, + about 1.8 meters of tippet. That tippet length is a little long for my taste, but that is about the same length you are using. The major difference is he is recommending a level line 1 meter longer than you are using. Oh, and you can ignore the 6 - 11 inch Yellow marker line he put on between the end of the level line and the tippet.

Now he grips the rod at the top of the grip, but that is his style. Some people prefer it. Others prefer to hold the grip in the middle or at the butt end of the grip. Try it or just hold the rod the way you prefer.

The important thing is to observe the angle of his cast. Where he stops the rod on the back cast and the forward cast. If you watch closely you can see the slight pause at the end of the back cast before starting the forward cast. You might even notice how the line tugs on the rod while the rod is held vertically before he starts the forward cast. The is the line loading the rod.

And also observe the rod angles to avoid. Not to far back, not to far forward. Stop about straight up at 12:00 for the back cast. Stop at about 2:30 on the forward cast.

The naration is in Japanese. But as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Then a moving picture is worth a million words. Try to notice the total time of the cast. The pause. And the speed he moves the rod.

http://www.daiwaweb.com/jp/fishing/f...ml#Keiryu#none

The above video and one other one - showing him fishing. Can be opened by clicking on the text box on the below webpage. The above video it the top box. The fishing video is the bottom box.

http://daiwa.globeride.jp/column/tenkara/index.html

Of course each rod or rod + line has it's own way it likes to be cast as a system. Your Hellbender rod may require a bit different timing from the Daiwa rod and line his is using. But the basics will be the same. You will just have to play around with the speed of rod movement, the length of the pause, etc to find what works with your rod and line.

Good luck.

D

Bill,
I think I can help, because I had the same problem when I first started. Two points: First, I would begin with a furled line since they are easier to cast for most people. Secondly--and this is the more important point--keep your casting stroke short--really just a "flick," with the rod ending high. Usually, coils at your feet mean that you are over-powering the cast and stopping too low. You say to yourself, "I have to get that line out there!" and you do the exact opposite of what you need to do. Think "gentle flick" (for a good-quality rod), stop higher than you think you should, and you'll be amazed at what happens. Good luck and hope this helps!

Hey thanks for the reply.. I picked out 4 moonlit furled lines n plan on implementing them n getting things right.. and I keep watching vids of casters n what your saying really runs true..I'm seeing pretty much what your talking of with every caster I watch..n it is merely a flick of their wrist..I was using way to much western influence on my attempts.. working on locating good water in my area.n that's proving a task at the moment..since moving to cny more yrs ago then I care to admit I'm finding the fishing waters are way more spread out and access very limited.. that and so much is"closed" till April... really has my opportunities limited at the moment..second half of April should be awesome though I'm hoping..

If you have an old 3 or 4wt fly line around, there is another option you can try. :)

I have not seen or cast the Hellbender, but I think they advertise it as being their big fish rod, so it is probably pretty stiff. Size 4.5 level line is plenty heavy so it should work, though. Switching to a furled line will not improve your form. It will allow you to cast with bad form so you might never improve, though.

I have a good friend who is a tenkara angler and also a western fly fishing casting instructor. Although most tenkara anglers use much more wrist, it you have a good western cast you don't have to change much at all (at least if you follow the Joan Wulff school of casting rather than the Lefty Kreh school of casting!). The one thing you absolutely must change, though, is the followthough. Do not, Do Not dip your rod tip at the end of the forward cast. Keep it high - no lower than 45 degrees. The basic physics of casting a line, whether western or tenkara, are identical. You must smoothly accelerate on the back cast and stop the back cast abruptly with the rod just past vertical. Pause until the line straightens behind you. You should be able to feel it tug on the rod when it does, but watch the back cast in case you haven't yet noticed the tug. As soon as the line straightens, start your forward cast. You must accelerate throughout the forward cast and you absolutely must stop the forward cast abruptly, with the rod no lower than 45 degrees. Almost everyone who has tenkara casting problems is doing two things wrong. 1) the don't stop abruptly enough. 2) they don't stop the forward cast with the rod high enough.

The cast should not be just wrist. You should move your upper arm, forearm and wrist. Review Joan Wulff's on-line videos of a fly cast. Her comments about the wrist snap that ends a forward cast - like using a screen door - push with your thumb (most tenkara anglers grip the rod with the index finger on top rather than the thumb, so push with your index finger) and pull with your ring finger and pinky) are THE key to a tenkara cast. That will give the rod the loading it needs so the rod tip whips forward when you stop your cast ABRUPTLY. I suggest Joan Wulff's videos rather than video's of Sakakibara because she describes what she is doing. He doesn't speak English so he can't tell you step by step what he does. But remember, do not dip the rod at the end of the forward cast. That is the one big difference.

I would slightly disagree with David and suggest starting with a line (not counting tippet) that is no longer than the rod. Once you get it to roll over properly, then go to a longer line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CM_Stewart

..... Although most tenkara anglers use much more wrist, it you have a good western cast you don't have to change much at all (at least if you follow the Joan Wulff school of casting rather than the Lefty Kreh school of casting!). The one thing you absolutely must change, though, is the followthough. Do not, Do Not dip your rod tip at the end of the forward cast. .... You must smoothly accelerate on the back cast and stop the back cast abruptly with the rod just past vertical. Pause until the line straightens behind you. You should be able to feel it tug on the rod when it does, but watch the back cast in case you haven't yet noticed the tug. As soon as the line straightens, start your forward cast. ....
The cast should not be just wrist. You should move your upper arm, forearm and wrist. Review Joan Wulff's on-line videos of a fly cast. Her comments about the wrist snap that ends a forward cast - like using a screen door - push with your thumb (most tenkara anglers grip the rod with the index finger on top rather than the thumb, so push with your index finger) and pull with your ring finger and pinky) are THE key to a tenkara cast. .....

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I would agree with Chris that Joan's description of how to cast is very much in line with what I think I know about Tenkara casting. And her style of casting is more Tenkara-like that other western casting instruction I have seen.

I really like her description of an imaginary line between your eye and the target point, and to make the power snap when the rod is perpendicular to that line. Or stated another way, make sure the fastest part of your forward cast is after your rod reaches that perpendicular point. I think you can also think of making the fastest part of your back cast after the rod reaches that perpendicular point too.

Joan Wulff Teaches the Basics of Fly Casting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyThAv-WPSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyThAv-WPSg

It's not in this video, but I think it was in another video using a lot of the same video where Joan emphasizes the importance of keeping a little space between the palm and the rod grip. That is hold the rod grip lightly. Don't hold it tightly like driving a nail with a hammer. I think that does two things: it improves the cast, and it helps the rod tip osciallation to dampen out faster at the end of the forward cast.

I think the important result of learning to improve your casting technique is not to just be able to cast, but with better casting technique you will be able to cast a lighter line well, which will allow you to fish and hold more of the line off the water than is possible when fishing with a heavier line. And help you to better cast in wind because you have learned how to transfer more power into the line from the rod motion.

As for the thumb on top used with western rods. Actually if you look at a lot of Japanese tenkara fishing videos some people do cast with with the thumb on top, mostly the older generation. I do think it is a more natural hand arm alignment, and I cast with that grip from time to time. I find it a useful way to use a different set of muscles during the cast. Particularly useful during a long afternoon of fishing especially when fishing with a long rod, 3.9m or longer, and a long line. Not so much useful when fishing with a rod of 3.6m or shorter with a short light line. Worth trying from time to time.

D

Awesome video. Joan Wulff is a great casting instructor.

While fishing in a strong wind last week, I noticed my form was falling apart when I tried to power my casts into the wind. A slightly relaxed stroke worked much better.

Thanks