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Foam and Dremel
Hey all you dremel bug fans! I just built a dremel lathe and have an upholstery needle for the mandrel. I'm using a very light touch, and I know what a light touch is on a lathe. Still, the foam slips around. The only reference on FAOL I could find about this was a suggestion to use a lighter touch. Anyone have another solution? Maybe rough up the mandrel? Super glue? tacky wax?
Thanks for any wisdom.
Diane
[This message has been edited by Diane (edited 04 February 2005).]
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You may want to rough up your mandrel and keep your speed up.
Larry
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email chevyvan37@aol.com for suggestions. Jack will set you straight.
-Zac
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The way to a flyfisherman's heart is through his fly
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thanks, bass. i'll do that. already emailed Jim Hatch, too. I tried superglue tonight sand it works but it messes up the bug on the way off the mandrel a bit.
Diane
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You could try a seam ripper that has the 2 teeth or another option is one of those corn cob holders. Just melt the plastic corn shape off and you're good to go. -Jeff
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Diane,
I use a 1/16 drill bit in my Dremel. For the firmer foams, it holds well all by itself.
On the softer stuff, I use a drop of super glue. Use a twisting motion to take the body off after shaping and you'll reduce the tearing.
Good Luck!
Buddy
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Tie flies beyond the resistance of mortal trout!
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first of all, it really depends on the type of foam. i find closed cell foam laminated into blocks to be the best, and then those little foam marshmallows. make sure when you put it on the lathe, you get it on right the first time and don't reposition it, and only move it in one direction when putting it on.
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Hey Diane, I might have a solution for you. First by way of information. There are basically two designs in needles. A taper needle, which is just whatit says it is, a round needle shaft that tapers to a round point. This design is used for putting a needle through fabric, (or skin or other tissue in my work)without cutting or tearing the material. The other type of needle is called a cutting needle. This type of needle starts with a round shaft and is then forged into a triangle shape on the portion of the needle toward the tip. The edges of this triangle are then sharpened so that they cut through fabric, skin, tissue, rather than just pushing through without cutting. This may be the answer for your uses because of the triangle shaped area of the needle. It would probably keep the foamm from turning on the needle shaft. Not sure where one might find a cutting edge needle out in the general public, but I know where there might be a couple of them..he he he.. Send me a diret e-mail and I might be able to get one out to you to try.
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These are the idle thoughts that posses a man's mind when he's not able to fish.
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Diane that address is ChevyVan37@aol.com
Hopefully it doesnt matter if it does im sorry. Hopefully its not case sensitive
Sry
-Zac
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The way to a flyfisherman's heart is through his fly
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If you don't mind spending some money, Sleazy Steve sells a mandrel for turning foam poppers that works great. Essentially a block with three needles sticking out of it. One long one to hold the foam and two shorter ones on the sides to keep it from spinning.
Can't remember if he has a site or not but I'll look and post if he does.
Kevin
[This message has been edited by fly-chucker (edited 05 February 2005).]
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Why not use a bike spoke a described by Bill Fitzgerald for tube flies and just turn the nut against the foam?
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Push the needle straight through the foam with no twisting, and you should be good to go. It also helps a bit if you push the foam all they way up to the eye of the needle (I think it grabs just a little bit, since it's not round).
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Diane
Check the web site for Sleazy Steve's Soggy Bottom Fly Shop [url=http://www.jvlnet.com/~swinters:f3c68]www.jvlnet.com/~swinters[/url:f3c68]
His products listings show what he sells for dremel foam...with the one long "spike" and the two little ones it'll keep the plug straight and non spinning.
Betty
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Trouts don't live in ugly places
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Thanks, folks. I'll take a look at Sleazy Steve's site. Sounds like a possibility. Might make something like that.
Satchel, I think those triangular needles are just the ticket.
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Hey Folks,
Here is what I do. I use a 2 1/4"
upholstery needle from Walmart. I took
it to my local True Value and got a collett
that was a perfect fit for $2.00. I insert
it tightly in the dremel. Test spin at 1/2
speed. If you have any vibration, something
is amiss. If not, you are good to go. I
leave the eye of the needle stuck back into
the dremel shaft underneath the locking nut.
Then I take a pre cut plug of foam. Flip
flop foam works quite well. I tap my foot
control a couple of times as I stick the
needle through the foam plug. Then, spinning the foam at about half speed on the
dremel, I shape it with a small emery board.
It takes only seconds to make your desired
shape. A light touch is very necessary but
it works quite well for me. I use no other
method of securing the foam other than the
friction against the needle. Do not use a
standard sewing needle. Too easy to bend
and you do not want to spin a bent needle
in proximity of fingers.*G* I have used my
current 2 1/4" upholstery needle for over
3 years without changing it out. I have
turned over 4,000 dremel bugs on the one
needle. I have perhaps had one out of a
hundred foam plugs slip while turning during
all of this time. Once a plug slips on the
needle while turning, throw it away. It
glazes the inside where it meets the needle
and it will continue to spin. This is what
works for me. Steve has corresponded with
me and he sounds like a very pleasant gent.
I have been told by others that his products
work well. He has indicated he'd like to
come fish with me and I hope he makes it and
will demonstrate his goodies. Meanwhile, I
find the upholstery needle works very well
for me. I have corresponded with over 100
dremelbuggers since the article appeared on
FAOL that are using the needle method
successfully. I would be tickled if I
could demonstrate it for you guys but that
is not practical. If anyone has questions
plese don't hesitate to email me and I'll
try to help ya figure it out.*G* Warm
regards, Jim
p.s. I have found that half speed on a
variable speed dremel or perhaps a notch
less seems to be the best speed for turning
most foams.
[This message has been edited by Jim Hatch (edited 05 February 2005).]
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Hey Folks,
Just a word of caution. If you are
going to use something other than an
upholstery needle, or perhaps the suggested
drill bit, make sure it is straight,
balanced, and tempered. Mild steel may bend
while applying pressure and create an
instant unbalanced condition. You do not
want to do this with something spinning as
fast as a dremel motor. Make sure you use
common sense and don't qualify for a Darwin
award.
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Jim's last note was really important. I chucked an upholstery needle into my dremel and started it up on half speed. The length of the needle (about 4 inches) combined with the mildness of the steel (very cheap needle) made for an unholy mess. The needle bent quickly and wildly and if my fingers had been near it, I'd have had some cuts or, worse yet, have caused the needle to snap off and fly. Wear glasses when you start this before figuring out the equipment. Also, here's a safety tip from woodturning. When you first start turning an unbalanced piece, start slow and stand off to the side (the headstock or dremel tool side, not toward the end of the needle or tailstock) so that if it does spin loose, it flies across the room, and not into you. I guess this means that you probably shouldn't do this with your significant other or favorite child or pet in the trajectory path either.
I love turning foam already!
Diane
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Diane,
Wait till you see the kewl foam Sleazy Steve has!
Betty
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Trouts don't live in ugly places
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Diane,
Perhaps part of the problem you were
experiencing was the length of your needle.
I initially tried some of the longer needles
when first setting up my dremel lathe. I
found the 2 1/4 to 2 1/2" upholstery needles
worked well. Much longer, they tended to
pick up a bit more vibration and became
unsuitable. Unlike a real lathe, the
dremel only supports one end of the mandrel
and too much length can be problematic. I
have found the shorter ones quite capable of
turning large bass and saltwater poppers
with no problem.
Maybe your thread will stir enough
interest for a dremel bug swap.*G* Or
perhaps a FOTW for the dremel buggers. I
have several I've been considering for
submission. Warm regards, Jim
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Wow, what a coincedence! I'm building my dremel lathe today! Read Jim's great article and just had to try it. I'm painting it now, so can't 'play' just yet.
Thaks, Jim for a great, how-to article!
Have fun,
George
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George, you're painting the lathe? You are a better man than I. Mine is an old drill table homemade clamp that I adapted and then clamped down to my workbench. I'll try to remember to take a photo of the chaos later.
Show us how yours looks. That would be cool.
BTW, I switched to a better needle and still have slippage. must be a rookie thing.
Diane
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Hey Diane,
Man, if I could just show ya, I could
explain in two minutes what takes an hour
to write about.*G* It WILL work I promise
and I will do everything I can to show ya.
I just figured out how to do the movie bit
with my digicam. Now I gotta figure out how
to email it.*G* Hang in there, it's well
worth the effort. Warm regards, Jim
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George,
I too would love to see your finished
project, as well as some finished flies.*G*
Let me know if I can provide any info for ya. My email addy is posted up top. The
darned things are too much fun not to share.
I get a kick out of them. They are great
trading fodder and I swap a lot of dremel
bug creations for flies I don't like to tie.
Works out well for me.*G* Regards, Jim
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Ok, when it's done and ready for prime time, I'll post a pic or two.
Trust me, it's nothing fancy, just some scrap boards I had lying around. I'm just spray painting it flat white, over some primer.
I used one of those clear heating vent deflectors to go over the 'lathe' area (where the needle is) to see if it would help keep the foam dust to a minimum. Used the dremel to cut the end out that the needle area slips under.
Can't wait to try it out, though!
Have fun,
George
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just to prove that I truly am a chaos queen and having fun, I'm posting these photos. The dremel lathe, such as it is, with my first two dremel bugs, drying and waiting for epoxy. Don't even tell me how ugly those colors are. I'm hitting a craft shop tomorrow.
Thanks for the help, everyone.
http://www.dianemaluso.org/ff/dremellathe.jpg
http://www.dianemaluso.org/ff/dremelbugs1.jpg
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Hey Diane,
It appears you have taken my "jellybean"
pattern a step further, turning it into a
full fledged easter egg.*G* Warm regards,
Jim
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Hey folks. I switched to a different brand of flip flop foam, an actual plug cutter instead of the copper pipe I was using, and a smaller emery board. Less slippage now. Sleazy Steve's stuff looks great though. Might have to find a way to justify spending a few bucks on that holder with the prongs.
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Something else you might get is a very thin screw and use that to hold the foam.
I got a 1/16" screw that worked for me.
Rick
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Here is a pic. of my lathe:
http://www.geocities.com/ggmiller4/lathe.jpg
I couldn't get any foam turned, they all kept slipping off. I am using foam from a kneeling pad I got at Home Depot.
I'll have to look for an upholstery needle this weekend when I go shopping.
Have fun,
George
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Hey George,
Nice looking set up buddy. Your dust
catcher looks pretty effective. I did
something similar using a plastic candy box.
The advantage was that I could remove it to
dump the dust and rinse it before putting
it back in place. As you do your shaping,
if you apply the emery board only to the
bottom edge of the foam, the dust will be
directed away from you against the catcher
as long as the dremel motor is located to
your left, just as you have it.*G* The
kneeling pads are a good source for thicker
foam material, but the quality of it is not
as good as a closed cell foam flip flop. It
will have more of a tendency to spin on you.
Good luck with your rig and I look forward
to seeing some of your creations. Warm
regards, Jim
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man, I've still got purple foam dust in my garage from that dremel swap, jim.
I do like that dust catcher. I shoulp probably start turning some more dremel bugs for spring bassin'...that was fun stuff.
mgj
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Hey Mikee, others,
Here is a quick snapshot of my dust
catch tray. My wife loves Ferrero Rocher
chocolates but will rarely buy them for
herself. I like the neat plastic boxes
they come in.*G* Every now and then I'll
get an idea for a project and buy her a
box. I get brownie points as well as a
neat box for some of my little projects.*G*
I used the dremel with a cutoff wheel to
shape the opening in the box. Then I glued
the lid back to the base portion of the box
and turned it upside down to position it.
The dremel motor turns counter clockwise.
If you position it to your left, and remove
material from below your needle, the dust is
directed straight against the bottom and
back of the catch tray. It actually seems
to creat a static charge after a few minutes
that seems to stick the dust to the box.*G*
Warm regards, Jim
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/DSCN1696.jpg
[This message has been edited by Jim Hatch (edited 07 February 2005).]
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Jim:
Thanks for the nice words!
You stated to apply the emery board to the bottom of the foam.
Maybe this is why I'm having a problem, I was trying to put the emery board towards the top
1/3 of the foam as is spun.
I'll have to give it a try.
thanks,
George
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Hey folks,
Have you tried to use a canvas needle to hold the foam better? It has a different geometric shape along the tip end. Its triangular. Seems to me, the foam would spin less whether its glazed or not if the mandrel has an angled diameter (along the tip end) rather than soley a circular diameter. Just an idea http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif.
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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL
"Flip a fly"
[This message has been edited by dixieangler (edited 07 February 2005).]
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Another thing that I've done is to take the tip on the needle into a piece of wood after you get the foam on. It seemes to cut down on any vibration.I've also used all kinds of differnt lenght needles. I say when you first chuck one up run it for a few minutes to make sure it doesn't bend. I've stuck foam on 2 ways with the dremel running and with it off and with it on works alot better. And I don't use emeroy boards either I use needle files which alot of times odd lots has them 10 files for 2 bucks there are many types of files in the set and Harbor freight also sells them. I've sent a few of my plug samples out to some fokes on this bb to check out. Later Matt
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To each there own !
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I'm going to try the not-round needle idea. think that would be good. and stonefly, it sounds as if you've created a tailstock. I think that's a great idea and one I'm going to try to duplicate.
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There is also a tent (?) needle that is flat along the tip as it comes to the point on the needle. It was a mixed needle kit at Wal-Mart with the needle types written on the back. $1.34 http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif. The needles are about 2" long. Hope this helps.
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Robert B. McCorquodale
Sebring, FL
"Flip a fly"
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Hey Folks,
In the last three years, I've turned
over 4,000 dremel bugs, still using the
original 2 1/2" upholstery needle from Wally
World. I make bodies that fit hooks from
#20 up to 5/0 and range up to 2" long by
3/4" diameter. No extra support or any
mods other than my original description in
the article. It works well for me and I
consider it a practical method of shaping
bug bodies safely.
HOWEVER, the use of corn holders or specialty needles, or whatever, scares the
pure living (censored by author) out of me. That dremel spins at up to 35,000 rpm. For those that don't know, thats
about 6 times faster than the family car
engine will spin in neutral with your foot
on the floor! Some specialty needles may
be heavily tempered and break under the
right conditions. Others may be too soft
and bend. No offense to whoever suggested
it, but most corn holders are just nails
set in plastic. Ouch. Put an untempered
needle or modified "whatzit" in a dremel
and turn it at speed and you may invent a
slicer/dicer that Ron Papio would lust over. My suggestion is that if the
recommended needle is not working, your
foam is probably too soft or of a rubber
base rather than a closed cell plastic foam.
If you want to try another method, check
out Sleazy Steve. He sells tools designed
to work with a dremel for making foam flies. No affiliation.
For what it's worth, I've received over 100
emails from folks that read the article and
have successfully created dremel bugs in the manner I described. Warm regards, Jim
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I'll second the warning from Jim. When I was younger and stupider I grabbed a chainsaw sharpening kit built to be used in a drill and decided I was gonna use it in my Dremel instead. I figured the drill turns at 900RPMs and the Dremel on low was 'only' 1400 or something (according to the little knob) so it should be okay. Boy was I wrong. the shaft on that sucker bent to a 90 degree angle, took off a large chunk of skin from my finger and palm and then fried the motor on my Dremel. Ever since I have been much more careful about what I put in there and how I used it. I would really hate for anyone else to have to learn the hard way also.
Don
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Hey Diane, Others,
I just made a trip to Wally World
looking for needles. In the sewing section
they had a package for $.72 containing seven
needles that they referred to as "Yarn
Darners". They appear in all respects to be
identical to the ones I bought off the same
rack over 3 years ago labled "Upholstery
Needles". They appear to be one and the
same and packaged identically. They range
in size from size 14 to size 18 and are
2 1/4" to 3" long in the assortment. I
also picked up a set of collets to fit the
dremel. The four collet set was $6.97 and
fits all of the needles as well as virtually
any needle from 1/8" diameter and smaller.
I tried each needle from a package with the
proper collet and turned a body on each. No
problems what so ever.
Regarding the shaped specialty needles
that have been discussed, you will not be
able to use the dremel motor to help seat
the plug without hogging out the hole to a
point where it will only slip. That is one
advantage of the round tapered needles.
With a firm closed cell foam, I can easily
place a foam plug on the needle using a few
quick taps on the foot control to spin the
needle. Without this capability, it is very
hard to force the foam over the needle and
very much increases the odds of bending same or *****ing a finger.*G*
If anyone is unable to find the needles
or collets locally, I will be happy to pick
them up and send them to you at cost. Warm
regards, Jim