I have an apology to make.

I have something of an apology to make. I have said in the past that sunlight will turn Peacock feathers bronze. Well, I have had a bundle of Peacock ?tail? feathers in the sun for some five years or more now and I really can?t detect much if any change from greenish to bronze. I do know for a fact that sunlight does bleach color from feathers but am at a loss as to why these feathers haven?t changed other than to get lighter (bleached).

I have had a fairly good size bunch of Peacock ?tail? feathers that are in fact bronze but have had them for many years and they weren?t in direct sunlight.

The good news is that the regular green herl turns bronze in the water. So, no matter what color the dry herl, you will fish bronze flies tied with it.

Bottom line is that this long term test came as a surprise to me. I will continue to leave it in the sun to see if five more years makes any difference. I?ll update you then.

Happy Trails!
Ronn

Hey Ron,

Not to worry my friend. All is forgiven.*G* For pennance, please tie a
half dozen of your irredescent scud flies
and send them to me at .........*G* Warm
regards, Jim

Ronn,

Interesting experiment ;-)

Quote:

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The good news is that the regular green herl turns bronze in the water. So, no matter what color the dry herl, you will fish bronze flies tied with it.

---

Hmmm... are you sure about this?

It may very well be that green looking peacock herl turns a darker shade, bronze in your words, when slightly submerged.

The base material, the herl iself, does not have a color. It is black or a very dark gray. The color we see, be it green or be it bronze, is the result of light refraction. It does not take submerging very far into the water to have the material be out of reach of the light wavelength to still exhibit any color, and the result is very black looking herl http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

All this is fairly immaterial, though. Peacock herl must be among the top three materials on the trout-magnet chart! Trout love it, and so does this tier http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

Cheers,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

Ron,

I tried that same "experiment" by leaving a bunch of peacock hurl on the dashboard of my truck. I figured in the hot Georgia sun, I'd have nice bronze peacock hurl in no time. Four years later, I had a bunch of rather dry, brittle and somewhat dull green peacock hurl. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that there is a color variant peacock that produces the bronze hurl.

Jim Smith

Ronn, it reminds me of the time I advised someone to learn to whip finish the "right way", by hand. I thought I was giving good advise, but fortunately there was someone out there to point out that you can do a darn fine whip finish with a tool. I think that was you, and I stand corrected.
Eric

Hans, humor me a bit. Please take some herl and put it into water and see what color it is/reflects UNDER the water surface. If your water and herl are anything like what I have here, it ought to be a distinct bronze color. The color shift in water is negligible at depths we normally encounter while fishing rivers and streams. Maybe at ten feet or more there will be color loss but little at a couple feet. The color of the water and rocks will influence color more.

Yes, the herl is a dark grey but for our purposes that is not relevant. It's the color we and the fish see that is relevant. I know what I see but can't get into a fishes head to see what it does so I will leave that to them to articulate. [8^)

Happy Trails!
Ronn

Ron, Hans....you guys forgot one thing. You must walk around yer fly tying chair three times clockwise and then three more times counter clockwise with the peacock feathers in your front left front pocket before putting them in the sun. Or they won't bronze. Mr. Hatch knows that but is trying to get free flies instead of telling ya Ron.

Charlie

I seem to have been given the impression that Bronze or Green Peacock comes about because one is from the Indian Peacock and the other from the African Peacock.

It would be interesting to get the "Real Oil" as the Cochi Bundu recipe calls for Bronze Peacock Herl in some books.

I had plenty of Bronze Herl when I was in Africa, so there may be something in the two location theory. Jax

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I'm a much better Fly fisher when talking fishing, than when I'm Actually Fly fishing!

For what it's worth, Bronze peacock has different color than green peacock when submerged underwater. Both are bronze, but I believe the bronze peacock has a orangey hue. As Han's says " Your results may vary" Jim

The Congo Peacock doesn't have much of a tail and nothing like the Asian Peafowl. Some Peacock tails that are bronze could well be from the Green Peacock but I don't have any that I know of. The various Green Peafowl are on the rare side so I doubt much if any gets into the tying/craft community. The Congo is very rare and I have only seen pictures of them.

It could be that any difference noticed between green and bronze herl IN the water if any, is a result of light bleaching of the feathers over time. In any case, any difference would be minimal at best. Not enough to be of consequence I would think.

Happy Trails!
Ronn

You maybe right about the color differential not being of consequence but there are tried and true patterns that specifically call for bronze peacock. Could it be that the old masters felt that the subtle difference made a difference. I think Gary LaFontaine found in his research that when a insect is hatching it has an orange glow about it , particularly the wings. This past summer while in Montana a guide I was chatting with was using a fly that had orange in it's design and it out fished the same pattern without orange something like 6 to 1.Only the fish know for sure ;-)
Take care, Jim

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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:cbfca]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:cbfca]

[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 07 February 2005).]

Guys,

Maybe it's just me. Probably.

Anyway, here goes.

I have peacock 'herl' that looks 'green' to me, dry, under my tying light.

I have some other peacock herl that looks 'bronze' to me, dry, under my tying light.

The 'difference' is very obvious. None has been in the sun, to my knowledge, it came that way.

Am I nuts (well, probably, but I mean about there being BOTH colors of peacock herl)?

I've been 'sorting' what I have by 'color', because I prefer the green for some applications and the bronze for others.

Thanks,

Buddy




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[url=HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML:2207a]HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML[/url:2207a]

Forget the peacock herl----Hans, what are your other top three ingredients? Let me in on your secrets.

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Swing hard, in case they throw the ball where you're swinging. Duke Snider

I thought Gary LaFontaine did an underwater study a few years ago... maybe quite a few... and he saw the peacock turned to an almost orange when underwater. I read something by Borger about it too. Borger said that's why he uses so much peacock in his patterns.


Mike

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There is no greater fan of flyfishing than the worm.


Patrick McManus

India Blue Peafowl (Pavo cristatus) has the green herl.
A mutation that is known by the name black-shoulder and blackwinged have more of a bronze color to the herl.

At one time a few years ago I raised quite a few of the black-shoulder peafowl from a pair I had. The male could not fan his tail crosswise in a 8 foot wide pen. I measured his tail when displayed at 9' 6". I have sent a lot of his herl to customers of mine over the past several years. When he passed on to peafowl heaven or where ever they go I chose to not replace either the hen of male. The hen is almost white in color of this mutation.
My experience is when herl is left in the sunlight it bleaches, starting next to the stem and gets brittle due to the drying out of the cells inside the stem.

So if you want bronze peafowl herl, contact some breeder of peafowl and ask to look at a Black-shoulder male. They are not rare but not as popular as the India Blue.
Denny


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Denny
Denny@conranch.com
Co-Owner Conranch Hackles


[This message has been edited by Denny (edited 07 February 2005).]

Sounds like the two colors come from different species but if it is a sunlight effect on the greens could it be that your experiments have been filtered through glass and that green feathers left in unflitered sunlight would turn?

Apparently bronze peacock has always been hard to get and several authors including Halford and Leisenring recommend dyeing green peacock in magenta dye to get bronze. Bill

Hi Ronn,

Under the conditions you describe the refractive properties will be visible, and the perceived color will remain as you describe, either bronze or green.

However, that in part misses the simple point I tried to make in that unlike what it would appear at first look the herl itself is not possessing the color we see, but is the result of an optical 'illusion'.

To focus on your secondary question: The water we fish is rarely as clear to the fish as it appears to us looking down into it. Any one who has 'swam with the fish' can attest to that. In almost all but the stillest of pools and flows there is a substantial amount of sediment particles suspended in the water. Vertical vision from our normal vantage point shows clarity, horizontal vision under water shows it to be cloudy, the result of light bouncing off the minute suspended particles.

Under actual fishing conditions the green or bronze tinge disappears quite quickly in my experience, leaving the herl looking black. Your mileage may vary. The fish... well the fish will take flies tied with peacock herl readily for you and me alike http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

Regards,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

Hans, I have swum with the fish. I used to scuba dive and I know well of the color loss at depth and water turbidity as relates to color in open and fresh (lake & river)water. I didn't specifically take herl down with me but was fascinated by the environments.

Bottom line for me is that all of this means very little to us as fishers. Herled flies seem to do very well compared to flies sans herl but as is the case with much of the discussions, until fish can talk, we will never know why they take one fly and not the other. It really is only slightly of interest to me. I like the colors of herl, they work and that is enough for me.

Happy Trails!
Ronn

Ronn,

Amen to that ;-)

The fish like peacock herl. This means I, as a tier, do likewise.

Cheers,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

Well it is agreed that fish like peacock herl and it's been found through out the years that bronze herl is preferred in the dressing of flies. There must be a reason for this, perhaps it's snobbery, using a material that is perceived to be hard to obtain, giving the user the feeling of having something special, exclusive, or, maybe it might just be found to be more effective than green peacock. It is apparent that there is something different, and as Hans states, the base material is black or dark grey, it could be in the refractive qualities of each. Given that green peacock is darker than bronze peacock, this is why when wet, bronze peacock is orangey bronze as opposed to a darker red bronze of the green. Fishing deep the color obviously is not a factor, but as the fly swings back up the water column the color might play a more significant role. With emergers, wets and dries one has to give serious consideration to the different colors and refractive qualities of peacock herl and their real or imagined effect on fish.
Take care, Jim
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:70d9d]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:70d9d]

[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 08 February 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 08 February 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 08 February 2005).]

You guys are soooo DARN funny. I like to use it too. Scott