Printable View
In the head cement thread, herefishy asks, "does it matter if you run the wraps back from the eye, or just kind of slop them on top of each other?"
Anybody have any thoughts on whether to whip finish towards the bend or towards the eye?
I think AK Best advocates to whip towards the bend. I think the Beatty's advocate towards the eye.
Beatty is correct. The smoothest whip is towards the eye and does not expose the thread going back over the whip. There is less chance of the thread breaking.
I don't use head cement so for me it matters. If you use head cement, it probably does not matter.
Whip towards eye
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...psdeed77b8.jpg
Whip away from eye
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ps69d632d2.jpg
Had to think on that for a minute since I rarely use a whip but I agree with SC; towards the eye.
Regards,
Scott
I can't even visualize how you would do that bottom one. But I would call the top one wrapping away from the eye. Just the way I see it. That's the way I do it, just not sure I carefully lay each wrap next to it's neighbor and not on top of it. Will have to look more carefully and see if it just happens automatically.
Wrap towards the eye. Watch where Hans places the wraps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M482D0wFvHA
Wow, you're absolutely right. And I've done it wrong all these years, with my hands and the tool.
You sure?
An old sports magazine posts a video of the opposite
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...ed-whip-finish
I couldn't get that one to show, but did see another one on utube that is exactly like I do it and I can see the error of my ways, as that last tightening of the knot will pull all the wraps together and leave it all bunchy. Gonna change my ways
You can see in that old video, as he is tightening it, he has that single strand over the top of the wraps, just like in Silver Creek's picture. It's too blurry so see in the finished knot. I'm not sure how much difference it really makes. I tied a lot of them front-to-back when I first started tying and I don't remember too many coming apart.
I have done it both ways. Not me of the knots have come loose.
The advantage of tying the knot "going back away from the eye" is that you do not run the danger of crowding the eye of the hook with your knot.
Just tied a whip finish knot going back from the eye and there is no visible difference. The knot is just as smooth as going in the other direction.......................
I think there's another part of this equation we are overlooking, it is what is the material that the threat is made of ( Cotton, silk, nylon and polyester )because some threads and materials are less likely to slip than others? Again I advocate using wax, it has bonding and holding properties that will last for years not dry out. I don't believe UV light will affect the strength of the wax bond either. Fishin' Jimmy
PS I know that Gel Spun, monofilament and other modern threads present special challenges there I think Dave Whitlocks
Superglue Knot is the one I would recommend.
Jimmy,
That's a different discussion from the question of which direction to tie your whip finish knot.
Here's another, more recent video, on tying the whip finish away from the eye
video of tying whip finish knot
Thanks for this picture SC, I was taught to go towards the eye but never saw the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
With the finer threads what difference does it make? I also agree with Byron about crowding the eye.
Being as crude a tier as I, am I actually prefer a couple half hitches plus some good old SH.
My advantage is that with half hitches I can use the tool to push-back any errant fibers that are leaning forward.
I'm a crude tier too. A half-hitch tool is great for sneaking under parachutes or pushing back fibers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Kunz
Al Beatty and Ed Engle are not crude tiers, but both discuss using half-hitch tools to finish flies. Somewhere I've seen Al Beatty demonstrate using a half-hitch tool to help finish parachute flies. It may have been on Al's videotape, "Fly Tying Techniques". I still have the tape but no way to play it. (Real video cassette, I'm showing my age.) I've used other means to finish parachutes, but I still use the half-hitch, especially for tiny parachutes.
I start my whip finish at the rear of the head, four wraps forward, no problem crowding the eye.
Polly Rosborough and Randall Kaufmann both finished their flies with half hitches. But it would be hard to argue that a whip finish is not more secure. That's probably a separate topic though.
Which way is this instruction video?
http://youtu.be/kI0Hl-jRQd0
In the end, we pick and choose what we want. I prefer to use only three turns going from bend to eye. Hans Weilenmann described why going towards the eye was best on another forum, and convinced me it was the proper way. I havent looked for that discussion, and wont. If he wants to weigh in on this discussion, he will. If you like using six turns and going towards the bend by all means continue. If you are not comfortable in your skills, and would rather half hitch and glue the head, by all means do so. Perhaps, in the end, it makes no difference. At least we are discussing, and perhaps learning a better way to enjoy our hobby.
I notice Hans makes quite a heavy tug before he cuts his thread. Do you suppose that is an integral part of his whipping? I frequently break my thread as I'm finishing the whip, and ruin everything. Guess I need to use 3/0 thread.
He also pushes hard against the wraps with his finger nail. If you notice, he also maintains perfect tension on the thread at all times. That will do more for your fly durability than how you want to make the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by herefishy
Double, triple whip finishes towards the head is my solution. Have had problems when tied the other direction with usual 5 turn knot. Nothing wrong with half hitches per se. Use them myself. They just lack elegance...
Byron
Pardon! Why are we discussing the direction in which way we tie a whip finish knot?
Because the knots we're not holding and the flies were unraveling. Hence the original discussion where this direction question came from was about head cement. Now today it's direction is going in to why my thread breaks when I tie a whip finish. This discussion also lead people reading this discussion to believe that all threads are waxed today. That is incorrect. May I suggest Reading the article on thread by the late Chris Helm on the Whitetail Website.
All I am suggesting is there is a lot more that needs to be examined more closely into why a finish knots fails. I hope we can all learn a lot more about how to construct our flies better by keeping an open mind and sharing our successes and failures with each other.
I for one will still use a belt and suspenders to keep my pants up and double tie my shoelaces for good measure. That means I will use a bonding agent when I tie a finishing knot on my flies. Fishin' Jimmy
PS I said finishing knot, a whip finish would be included in a finishing knot type of knot.
I can't tell you why it breaks, but I can tell you that if you let all all the torque out of the thread before starting the whip, it will be less likely to break when you pull it tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishin' Jimmy
Jimmy,
Sorry, I thought this thread was about the correct direction in tying a whip finish knot.
There is another thread, concerning the use of head cement, in which many discussed other aspects of maintaining an unraveled fly...............
I do not think it matters at all what direction you wrap in. You should try to maintain uniformity in your head by paying attention to the wraps in streamer heads and such, since it will stand out if you don't. The only think I try to avoid, is making your wraps to far apart (or walking the thread). If you do, when you tighten your whip finish, it will pull them together and form a lump when they bunch. They will still hold fine though regardless.
Ralph