Rotating Vise

I just watched several YouTube videos of two well-known tiers. The flies I watched tied were a few Salmon flies like the Blue Charm and Rusty Rat. Then I watched 2 tiers, each tying the Grey Ghost. One was tied on a CS 10xl hook and the other on a 6xl hook. One of these tiers used a Renzetti and the other used a LAW vise. The funny thing was that neither used the 'rotary' function for either of these flies although one even said how important it was to get the rib evenly spread the entire length of the hook(tying the Grey Ghost). So I just wonder, if these tiers didn't use the rotary function on these flies where it would have been very appropriate and the function very applicable, why have it at all?
Just asking.

Allan

Because they're old school. Once you learn to PROPERLY use a true rotary vice, there is no old school substitute. The key is true rotation.

What Coach said...

Because it can.

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Originally Posted by CoachBob

Because they're old school. Once you learn to PROPERLY use a true rotary vice, there is no old school substitute. The key is true rotation.

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Hi Bob,

I don't know if the tiers I observed were 'old school' or not. All I observed was that they both had top of the line 'true rotary vises', yet they did not use the rotary function even though the flies tied were precisely what those vises were built to do. Maybe for these tiers the vises were an ego thing or something other then functional?
Now I have a question for anyone here: Have you seen any tying videos, except for the Norvise or a 'rotary vise sponsored' demonstration, where the rotary function is used? Was the tier somewhat renown or a John Doe who happened to make a video?

Allan

Old school? Thats basically saying they "choose" not to tie using the "better" method out of stubborness. I have tied for 24yrs now, and gone back and forth with rotary vise options a couple times over the years thinking I must be "missing" something. But I purchased a new Regal Medalion last year, while passing on my 24yr old Regal to my son....still non-rotary. Don't need rotary to be honest. I find the feel of thread and material tension to be far better without. Don't like switching hands, tying off and staging the materials that rotary requires either. I use the function of rotary to tie in throats and inspect the fly. Thats about it. I don't find rotary to be better at all....personally. :)

There's a real advantage to tying rotary in a couple of things - the one I can think of is wrapping wire - if you wrap it around the hook, you can weaken it to where it can break, because you are twisting it with every wrap. And anything you have to take a lot of wraps, it goes smoother if you just can hold it in one place and turn the wheel. The rotary vises like a Renzetti, which you have to move your material hand back and forth don't lend themselves to this. On the other hand, there are things you want to twist with every wrap like dubbing. I have always meant to get the Beatty's book on Rotary Tying.

One reason that rotary vices are not turned on videos is that it makes it harder to see what is happening.
Also winding wire while rotating the vice is much faster than doing it by hand.
Faster is not always better on a video.
My nickel on this.

Rick

My opinion is that a teaching video that demonstrates a fly that is tied without using the rotary function is universally applicable to every fly tier. If the tier uses the rotary function, only tiers that have a rotary vise can duplicate the instructions.

One must ask what the purpose of the video is. Is it to demonstrate how to use a rotary vice to tie the fly, or is it to show how the fly can be tied on all types of vises?

That's actually a really good question. I'll chime in with a few points. As some of you know, my cohort Cheech and I bust out a tutorial video every now and again. If you watch our videos, we're usually pretty consistent with how and why we use (or don't use) rotary.

As an example, this Copper John (Go to 5:40 )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebW0LAeJb8I

would have been a good example of something to use rotary on. However, because the pressure needed to apply to the three strands of wire was more than I felt comfortable using via rotary to maintain stability, I went with the old school way to wrap.

In this video, Cheech uses the rotary because it's the most efficient and effective method to get the job done (Go to 2:28 ):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RweR2WrgtXU

And to some extent, it's true there are cases where the rotary action might obscure the technique in a video.

And lastly, in this video, I find with delicate materials like quills or biots, I get a bit more "forgiveness" as I wrap without rotary. Also, with quills and biots, they tend to slip a bit, so I've found for more accurate spacing, I opt to forgo the rotary feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRq3dW3U7I

And sometimes, yeah, I'll admit I probably just forget the rotary feature if I'm not paying attention, so that's a factor too.

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting helpful Youtube videos here. If so, just delete the post.

Silver - You may be correct insofar as the non-use of the 'rotary' function because it's Not universal. So for teaching purposes the demonstrator may choose not to use it.

Curtis - You may also be correct that the rotary function may obscure the actual tying process. Not sure I agree with the non-use when the 3 strands were tied in. I actually think the rotary function would work well. I also think the use of the rotary function works okay when winding a weak quill like peacock. However, I tend not to use that function when tying a Quill Gordon, for example. Guess I'm too lazy to use it.

But with a streamer like the Grey Ghost on a 10xl or 6xl hook, I certainly would use the rotary function for the floss and the ribbing. Also, I'd expect the demonstrator to explain why he or she chose to use or not use that function of the vise.

I just found the demonstrations interesting from this POV. And the entire presentation by the two tiers was informative too.

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Originally Posted by herefishy

I have always meant to get the Beatty's book on Rotary Tying.

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I think if you did you would see many different techniques than just simple wrapping.

I've also noticed that few, if any, of the videos I've seen of fly tying use the rotary feature of the vise (even though almost all of the tiers have a rotary vise).

Don't get it. It's like buying a $50 K bass boat with a 200 horse engine, and using oars to more it around the lake because you don't want to learn how to start the engine....

I wouldn't ever go back to a stationary jaw vise. I use the rotary feature on my vise for so many things, much more than just simply wrapping stuff, that I couldn't do without it.

I bought the Beatty's book years ago, and it's just a starting point for what a quality rotary vise can do.

Don't understand why someone would buy a vise like this and not learn to use it to it's full potential. Luckily they still work for stationary tying. Otherwise the demand would be so low, no one would build them.

To each his own, I guess.

Buddy

I think the real answer is... Who cares? Even if someone doesn't use rotary for application of materials, there is a lot of value in being able to see the other side of your fly without arching your neck over and looking at it upside down;) Even if I didn't tie rotary style, I would absolutely still use a true rotary vise. You want to tie with a LAW vise and never rotate it? Fine by me.

Yes! Finally found a video on YouTube of a tier using the rotary function to tie the body and rib of the Grey Ghost.
Oh Cheech - I completely agree that, with a rotary or quasi-rotary vise, you don't have to arch your neck to see the far side of the fly. However, when you rotate the fly around such that it is facing you, it will be upside down.

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Originally Posted by Allan

Yes! Finally found a video on YouTube of a tier using the rotary function to tie the body and rib of the Grey Ghost.
Oh Cheech - I completely agree that, with a rotary or quasi-rotary vise, you don't have to arch your neck to see the far side of the fly. However, when you rotate the fly around such that it is facing you, it will be upside down.

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True. But at least the tyer will be right side up;)

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Originally Posted by cheech

True. But at least the tyer will be right side up;)

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Excellent :D!

I tie with a Nor-Vise. Sometimes I use the rotary function, sometimes I don't. Why? No real reason, depends what I am tying and how I want to do it. Rotary vises are very nice to have and use. I began tying on an old Herter's vice designed after the Thompson A vise, then moved on to the Griffin Patriot vis, still a great vise and one I use now and then, but then I tried the Nor-Vise and mostly use it now.

Larry ---sagefisher---

Allan-
View the Nor-Vise videos. Many techniques transfer to any rotary platform and will get you to thinkin' and schemen' in a most productive way.....Now if Norm doesn't black list me......

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Originally Posted by cheech

Even if someone doesn't use rotary for application of materials, there is a lot of value in being able to see the other side of your fly without arching your neck over and looking at it upside down

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Agree with cheech; I use the rotary function some, but mostly to see what the far side of the fly looks like. It does come in handy at times wrapping hackle, especially if I'm using 2, because I find it easier to maintain constant tension/proper spacing when I'm trying to fill in the gaps with hackle #2; just using hackle pliers, I sometimes don''t get the effect I'm looking for. May not be necessary, but I'd never go back to a vise without it; just my 1/50th of a dollar.

Regards,
Scott

I think Silver Creek really has it. A good instructor will purposefully not use the absolute premium equipment.
To do so might advertise that tool but could discourage those who use more basic gear. After all, video demos. are to discuss the fly not the gear. I'd love to see a video of Lee Wolfe tying a salmon fly without any vise at all.

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Originally Posted by Ray Kunz

I'd love to see a video of Lee Wolfe tying a salmon fly without any vise at all.

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Ray,

He doesn't tie a salmon fly but he ties 4 flies: a #28 grizzly hackle, a molded plastic mayfly, a soft extended-bodied nymph, and a Royal Wulff. He ties them all without vise(in the hand). The video is titled, 'I Was Born To Fish, Lee Wulff on the Beaverkill'. He also discusses trout, demonstrates casting and other interesting things. Video was made about 3-4 months before his death. It's an excellent video and one of my favorites.

Allan

Hi Allan, Is such a video available?

Ray,

I got my copy of the dvd when it first came out. As I said, it and one with Mary Dette are my 2 favorites. Here's a site that has information about the dvd including a complete review, in-depth description of contents and ordering information (I don't know if it's still available). You can also do a search using the title and maybe you'll find some other reviews: "I Was Born to Fish - Lee Wulff on the Beaverkill".

Allan

Ray, You requested a salmon fly tied by hand without a vise. The lady also does it without tools except for scissors. I posted this a couple of weeks back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3haTX...layer_embedded

There is "rotation" and then there is "true rotary"
There is "in-line rotary" and then there is "off-set rotary"

As an example, a very high end rotating vise (no longer being made) is the LAW vise. It is, in effect, an in-line rotary vise. The most classic example of an in-line rotary that most folks are familiar with is the original Norvise. In my opinion, all in-line rotary vises leave a lot to be desired in terms of good access to the rear of the hook. Even Norvise now offers an off-set jaw set for his fine vises.

The whole reason that off-set rotary vises became popular is because it offered 360 degree rotation AND better, unobstructed, access to the hook - especially the rear of the hook. The most popular, and early, example of this movement are the Renzetti line of off-set rotary vises.

I have asked Davie McPhail, for example, why he ties his flies having the jaws of the LAW vise he uses canted at such an acute angle. It is for good, clean access to the hook. He, and others, use the rotation feature to observe the applications of material on the hook. If you watch their videos, when they rotate the vise jaws, you can see that the vise is usually not in "true rotary" alignment...meaning that the hook shank does not maintain horizontal position when rotated 360 degrees.
Obviously, there is no "right" or "wrong" to any of this. It is what the tier is most comfortable doing in their style of tying.

However, I do think that if you are gong to tie in rotary style, the off-set true rotary vise with the capability of adjusting the jaws to maintain true rotary through a variety of hook sizes would be important.

Just my beliefs.

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Originally Posted by ScottP

Agree with cheech; I use the rotary function some, but mostly to see what the far side of the fly looks like. It does come in handy at times wrapping hackle, especially if I'm using 2, because I find it easier to maintain constant tension/proper spacing when I'm trying to fill in the gaps with hackle #2; just using hackle pliers, I sometimes don''t get the effect I'm looking for. May not be necessary, but I'd never go back to a vise without it; just my 1/50th of a dollar.

Regards,
Scott

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+1 with cheech and Scott, Byron...... Rotary function - sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't ~ but it's nice to have it there when I need it..... it's about options.

Completely agree, Doug. I said there is no right or wrong. I just hope folks considering the purchase of a vise are aware of the options available and what potential drawbacks might be.