Update me

While I've been fishing for decades and have progressed from bamboo to glass and now to graphite the main thing I notice is the increase in stiffness (modulus) that allow me to put more power into a cast.
Being a cheapskate and minimalist my graphite rods are the lower cost varieties. I have never used a "premium brand name" rod. Regardless, I frequently read comments in the forums that you haven't really lived until you buy one of these so-called "good" rods. Can someone explain to me what benefit I would get from a $400 rod versus the $100-$150 brands (Cabela's, Scientific Anglers, Pfleuger) thatI have?
The same sort of question also applies to reels. To me they merely store line. I can't recall any situation where I ever had to play a fish "on-the-reel". So what's with the emphasis on drag systems?
Maybe I just don't fish where the big fish live. Thanks for enlightening me.

I'm with you Ray. I'm a budget kind of guy, and the only rods I have that are pricey were gifts. I find myself migrating back to fiberglass. But even that has become too expensive. My 3 favorite reels are 2 Orvis Battenkill Disc reels that each cost less than $100. I don't use the drag system at all anymore, but I do have it set just in case. My other favorite reel is a Pflueger Medalist 1494. I traded some flies and a fly box for it. It works great and I don't mind the click at all. I have to admit that I do sometimes drool when I see a McFarland or Steffen Brothers glass rod.

$400 will buy you a middle-of-the-pack rod these days; think $800 for the "good stuff". The great thing about being a mediocre caster is I don't notice the difference between high-end and what I have (older Sages and inexpensive blanks I've built). As far as reels go, if you're not fishing for saltwater burners (like false albacore) or tailwater pigs, you probably don't need to invest much, although if you do hook a nice one and your drag hitches you'll beat yourself senseless.

Regards,
Scott

Al Campbell wrote a column that somewhat addresses this issue. The article is written from the prospective of why he, as a fly shop employee, might steer someone AWAY from a "higher end" rod. The article does give some good insight into the differences between high end and more moderately priced rods.

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/alcampbell/ac011402.php

That all being said, I, personally, am firmly in the "moderately" priced camp. I simply don't spend enough days on the water to justify high end prices.

Quote:

---

progressed from bamboo to glass and now to graphite

---

This puzzles me somewhat as I seem to have regressed....and ended up with cane. :cool:

Ray,

Let's assume that GM makes some really good cars. Call one a Chev, another a Buick and another a Cadillac. You can drive all three, so why would a person buy a Caddy if a Chev our Buick would do the same thing? Because we are human and because we live in a free enterprise system. There are differences between those three cars or otherwise there would only be one car. So, it is a matter of personal choice and what you can afford or are willing to spend.

For me, I will take the Caddy or in this case, I fly fish with Sage rods. Because I like them and I can buy them. So, why not?

Larry ---sagefisher---

I have to agree with Lotech, but maybe I'm uninformed, having never cast a $700 dollar plus rod. Every year rod makers bombard us with lighter, faster, more snsitive, etc. How much of this is hype? Has anyone done a blind test with any of these rods? How much farther can an average caster reach with with one of these wonder rods and how much will it improve his enjoyment of fishing.
I would like some opinions. Mine is "not much" Spend that extra money on learning to cast and learnng to get a drag free drift will, in my humble opinion, give you a much better return on your money.

I meant to add some of what Sagefisher said to my previous response.

Even though I use less than high end equipment myself, I agree with sagefisher completely. I have a fishing partner who fishes nothing but Sage. He likes them, can afford them and he thinks they are worth the price and for that matter HE is worth it. I flail around on the same water with my modest equipment and we both have a blast. I will say that he is a much better caster than I am. In this case, I don't think he is a better caster than I because he has an $800 rod and I have a $150 rod. I think he is better because he spends 5X as many days on the water than I do.

Buy what you like, what you can afford and what brings you pleasure. Life's too short to worry about it.

I'm a budget kind of guy and a pretty average caster. A year of so ago I was lucky enough to win a Helios 2 rod. From the first cast that rod absolutely makes me look a lot better than I am. It doesn't really make me a better fly fisherman, and it doesn't mean I can't have just as much fun with any of my "cheap" rods, but it is a spectacular tool.

Spend what you're comfortable with and enjoy the fishing!

Cliff

I am not a great fly caster and have fished with the bottom end of the rack for most of my life. A couple of years ago when I lost the two rods I used the most, one was a TFO 3 wt., the other a BPS Dogwood Canyon rod, Kevin Proctor gave me a rod he had and customized it for me. It is one of my most treasured possessions first because of Kevin's generosity and second because it is the best casting rod I have ever held. I can cast further, easier than any rod I had ever picked previous to it. As for drag on reels, I have caught some 5.5 - 8 lb. LMB, grass carps & catfish on fly rods, a decent drag has made the difference in landing or breaking off fish that size frequently. The reels doesn't have to cost a fortune to have a decent drag for most of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oldster

I have to agree with Lotech, but maybe I'm uninformed, having never cast a $700 dollar plus rod. Every year rod makers bombard us with lighter, faster, more snsitive, etc. How much of this is hype? Has anyone done a blind test with any of these rods? How much farther can an average caster reach with with one of these wonder rods and how much will it improve his enjoyment of fishing.
I would like some opinions. Mine is "not much" Spend that extra money on learning to cast and learnng to get a drag free drift will, in my humble opinion, give you a much better return on your money.

---

Oldster, the idea of me casting with my eyes closed to do a "blind test" is too horrible o contemplate. I'm quite bad enough casting with both eyes open. But I understand what you mean. I attended the second MIFI and Castwell let me cast several high-end rods. The Gatti was the best of the batch and the "rightness" of the feel was unlike anything I have ever cast, before or since, with one exception. The Gatti felt more like an extension of me than I had ever experienced. It was better than the (cheap) cane rods I had tried. It was extremely pleasant. I still use cheap rods. I am not God's most gifted and coordinated creature. If I broke a Gatti, and I almost certainly would, I would strongly inclined to cry shamelessly. Ergo, I buy cheap rods which only require a bit of whimpering if broken.

But even as the Gatti was had and shoulders above all other rods, at a subsequent MIFI I cast the ultimate rod. Castwell let me cast a Kusse Quad. It was alive. It was as far above the Gatti and the Gatti was above the pack. It was the most marvelous feeling I have ever experienced casting a fly rod. At the prices they ran, it ought to. It cost a great deal. If I was made of money and coordinated enough that I wouldn't live on fear of damaging such a treasure, it is what I would want. It was astounding. I really cannot adequately describe that rod.

Still, I am quite contented with my modest rods. They in no way mute the siren song of the streams calling out to me for my time and attention. And I expect that, even with a magical Kusse Quad, I would still festoon the trees with my flies. ;)

Regards,
Ed

How many low end rods have a lifetime warranty?
At one time I had cheap waders that leaked, what can you do with them?
I bought Simms and when gravel got into my boot and put holes in them, I brought them to Simms, They put new booties on and sent them back free of charge, not even shipping charge. That makes the difference to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krauseb

How many low end rods have a lifetime warranty?
At one time I had cheap waders that leaked, what can you do with them?
I bought Simms and when gravel got into my boot and put holes in them, I brought them to Simms, They put new booties on and sent them back free of charge, not even shipping charge. That makes the difference to me.

---

This is certainly a consideration. On he other hand, I figure I can replace my $150 rod 5 times out of my own pocket for the same price as an $800 rod with a lifetime warranty. And, if I break the same rod 5 times in my lifetime I need to get help! (Also, lifetime warranties are not free. The cost of replacement is built into the initial cost of the rod.)

Not picking fight here. To each his own. If warranty is a selling point for you, great. Just not much of a selling point for me.

My opinion is that there is a difference between a high end rod and a mid-priced rod. I think the most I have spent on a fly rod was $300 and that was for a used 3wt Sage XP and I enjoy using it. I also have a custom built Sage XP in 4wt and it was around $300. When I go fishing, I would say that I use these 2 rods the least unless I go to the Smokey Mountains to fish. I think the reason I do not use these two rods more here on my local rivers is that the 3wt is 8' long and the 4wt is 8' 6" and a 9' rod is easier to use on my home waters which are much larger than the mountain streams. For my local fishing, I am using a TFO Mangrove rod in a 5wt or a Cortland Big Sky 5wt or another 5wt rod with no brand name on it and all 3 in 9'. None of these rods cost anyway near the Sage rods and all three have warranties. So, with this experience, I feel the top end rods allow you to feel the rod load better which will improve you casting and that is due to better materials used and higher end quality control. It would be the same comparison between a high end skeet shotgun and your old squirrel shotgun you purchased from your local pawn shop. You could use either shotgun for skeet shooting but one would be easier to use and would outlast the other due to better quality.

I feel the high end rod would be lighter in the hand due to better quality material and stiffer which would provide better feel for casting. High end rods and mid-range rods will both catch fish and, in a good fly fisher's hand, I do not feel one would catch more than the other. Now if you are comparing which would be the best in a casting contest between pro casters, the high end rod may be your best choice.

So, if you want to know if a high end rod will out catch a mid-end rod, the answer, in my opinion, is no you will not see much difference. A person who is very good at presenting a fly and "fishing" a fly, can catch fish using any price rod including a broom stick handle. When it comes to a casting contest, in my opinion, it is a whole different story.......

Warren's post about high end rods out fishing mid-priced rods reminded me of a story...

Last summer I was fishing with the guy I mentioned above, Stan, who only fishes Sage (and is a very good caster, by the way). I forget all the details but we were throwing double nymph rigs which were quite heavily weighted. I was having a devil of a time making acceptable casts with my low-end rod and commented that I just wasn't able to cast this rig very well.

Stan asked to try my rod. After about 2 false casts, Stan lets go with a cast (with a rod he had never touched before) that was better than any cast I had made all day. He turned to me and said, "This rod will cast that rig just fine. You just need to put a little power to it." My reply to him was, "I never said the ROD couldn't cast it. I said I couldn't cast it."

My point being I think it has as much, if not more to do with the person holding the rod as the rod itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lotech

I'm with you Ray. I'm a budget kind of guy, and the only rods I have that are pricey were gifts. I find myself migrating back to fiberglass. But even that has become too expensive. My 3 favorite reels are 2 Orvis Battenkill Disc reels that each cost less than $100. I don't use the drag system at all anymore, but I do have it set just in case. My other favorite reel is a Pflueger Medalist 1494. I traded some flies and a fly box for it. It works great and I don't mind the click at all. I have to admit that I do sometimes drool when I see a McFarland or Steffen Brothers glass rod.

---

OK Joe ... glass huh? I have a few blanks (depending what size/wt you want) here we can wrap you one

My favorite (at the moment) is the clone of the Sage 3200 type of reels. I have a few of these and gave my son one for a 3wt I'm working on

I have a few top of the line Sages. I like them. I have a few middle of the road rods also. I like them. I like my Sages better and tend to fish them more often. Can I cast better with the Sages? Yeah, but the reason for that is I tend to fish them more and I am used to them. I fish them more because they are nicer rods.

From another point of view. I have a fishing partner that just purchased a bamboo two handed fly rod. It cost twice as much as my most expensive Sage. I jumped at the chance to cast it. Does it cast better than my Sage rods? I don't think I cast any better with it than I did with the Sages but I sure did like casting that bamboo two hander. That thing was cool.

Will a high end rod catch more fish than a mid priced rod?

Not for most of us.

Is there a "pride of ownership" difference?

Absolutely!

If I did more saltwater flyfishing, where distance often does matter (as well as being able to deal with wind from every direction), I'd take half the money a good rod cost and get some casting lessons.

Regards,
Scott

One of the reasons I enjoy threads like this is that there is no one universal right answer. The posts show that all responders have considered the issue and made the decision that was right for them.

I would strongly discourage a total newbie from starting out with a high end rod, even if they can easily afford one. They'll enjoy things just as much with many of the low to medium priced rods that are out there and catch just as many fish. Experience will then show them if they want to stay with the sport and advance to a higher end rod.

I own several rods - and have also moved several rods along to others. I belong to a casting club and can try any of the other member's rods. I think there are two distinctions between less expensive and more expensive rods - not counting better cork or better quality hardware.

Some rods just feel lighter and are lighter. Any rod that feels tip heavy (or just plain heavy) is out. I don?t fish a 7wt Ovis cane for that reason.
Some rods track straighter on the cast and have less tip bounce after the hard stop (tip bounce can be really tiring and make your elbow sore). I know there is the technical term 'damping/dampening', but my term is boingy, any rod that feels 'boingy' is out.

Many times the less expensive rods don't pass the test, yet not all expensive rods do either (the Fenwick Iron Feather failed). If you FEEL comfortable with your rod -good. If (because it is a tool in your hand/arm) it does not FEEL good, then it is likely a rod that will feel right is more expensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greg H

Some rods track straighter on the cast and have less tip bounce after the hard stop (tip bounce can be really tiring and make your elbow sore). I know there is the technical term 'damping/dampening', but my term is boingy, any rod that feels 'boingy' is out.

---

This. Less bounce/dampening/enhanced recovery all equal accuracy. Which is why I never understood the claim that sloooooower rods deliver a dry fly more presentably. When I'm fishing to risers, accuracy is key. If you're splashing your line to get there, you're just doing it wrong. The line is layed out, the fly drifts to the water. How does a fast rod not make that happen?

And then there are those of us who've had most of the different types of rods designed over the years, starting with my Wonderods of the 50's and 60's, then Fenwick, Browning, Lamiglas, Sage, and several other glass, graphite, boron and others. Right now I still have a couple of mid range graphites of 6, 8, and 10wt., plus several glass rods to play with. What do I use almost exclusively today when I am up to getting on the water? Bamboo. Yes, it's slow, heavy, and I love it. Finding the rhythm of a bamboo rod and gently laying out line is more than just fishing, it's becoming more of one with your environment. Maybe too melodramatic for younger guys but as you age this becomes more important than the fish, tho bamboo will catch and land them fine.

As for costs, I have several rods that would easily surpass the "perceived" value of the top end rods of today, but I'll stick the grass rods and just muddle along happier, or at least as happy as the guy zinging three casts for my every two. And when I fish a modern bamboo rod I personally know the builder of that rod and we've talked about what I'm looking for in an action. And when I fish a 70+ year old rod from one of the great names of the past I feel I carry a piece of history with me that no graphite rod off the shelf can ever know.

Vicrider,

I think you described very well why we do this. It's not about having the latest greatest rod or reel for most of us. It is about what gives us joy. That is a little different for each of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chewydog

This. Less bounce/dampening/enhanced recovery all equal accuracy. Which is why I never understood the claim that sloooooower rods deliver a dry fly more presentably. When I'm fishing to risers, accuracy is key. If you're splashing your line to get there, you're just doing it wrong. The line is layed out, the fly drifts to the water. How does a fast rod not make that happen?

---

Up to a point, I agree with you. But it is quite a bit easier for most flyfishers to deliver a fly more gently with a moderate, rather than fast, rod. It's the line speed that's a factor here. A faster (stiffer) rod tends to "need" to deliver with speed, while a more moderate action allows the line to straighten out with a bit more control from the caster. Both work, of course, but for dry fly work at less than great distances, i believe the slower action rod makes it easier for most casters.

Chuck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chewydog

This. Less bounce/dampening/enhanced recovery all equal accuracy. Which is why I never understood the claim that sloooooower rods deliver a dry fly more presentably. When I'm fishing to risers, accuracy is key. If you're splashing your line to get there, you're just doing it wrong. The line is layed out, the fly drifts to the water. How does a fast rod not make that happen?

---

Slow does not necessarily mean more bounce. For example, split cane recovers fairly quickly, even though even though rods made from it are generally slower than rods made of plastic. And a well designed slower rod (yes, there are horrible slow rods, as well as horrible fast rods) is unloading for the whole casting stroke, allowing for correction as needed.

On the other hand, fast does mean fast. If you straighten your leader completely, with lots of speed left when that final turnover occurs, the fly (not the line) will hit the water harder than if it barely turns over, and what's more will start to drag faster than if there's a tiny bit of slack in the leader. Yes, you compensate for this with a parachute cast or some other technique, but you're making things harder for yourself with the fast rod if you need a delicate delivery.

On a windy day, however, faster will be more accurate. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redietz

Slow does not necessarily mean more bounce. For example, split cane recovers fairly quickly, even though even though rods made from it are generally slower than rods made of plastic. And a well designed slower rod (yes, there are horrible slow rods, as well as horrible fast rods) is unloading for the whole casting stroke, allowing for correction as needed.

On the other hand, fast does mean fast. If you straighten your leader completely, with lots of speed left when that final turnover occurs, the fly (not the line) will hit the water harder than if it barely turns over, and what's more will start to drag faster than if there's a tiny bit of slack in the leader. Yes, you compensate for this with a parachute cast or some other technique, but you're making things harder for yourself with the fast rod if you need a delicate delivery.

On a windy day, however, faster will be more accurate. You pays your money and takes your choice.

---

What Bob said.

Chuck

One theme that comes out of this is many people who use sub-$300 rods feel they don't cast good enough to own a high end rod. If they would take a step up to the $300 plus rods they would see a differnece. I guide an can not count the number of times I have had clients show up with cheap rods and insist they fish them becuase they are "comfortable", most times by the end of the day I can talk them into it, then the light comes on that guy who was struggling to cast the crappy pfluger or boxed SI rod all of a sudden is throwing tight loops and 50+ feet casts. this does nto alway happen but it does more times than not. will it make you a better fisherman " no" , only allow you to actually cast to your potential. 8 0r 9 years ago if you asked if a high end +600 rod was worth it I may have sadi no unless you were a real good caster. But with the new blanks with boron , nano silica resins mixed with the high end graphite they are. I have found that the actual noticed "speed" of these rods is mor moderate that fast, do to the ability to make the upper section thinner and more flexible and have a stronger mid butt section to add the power. Some high end stuff is still like casting a pool cue but not all. these rods will only allow you to cast somewhat better there is no short cut or magic that will make you a better fly fisherman than time on the water. reel on the other hand are more in line with the car theme. do you need a high end reel probably not are they nice to have Oh ya baby.

steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddisfly777

OK Joe ... glass huh? I have a few blanks (depending what size/wt you want) here we can wrap you one

My favorite (at the moment) is the clone of the Sage 3200 type of reels. I have a few of these and gave my son one for a 3wt I'm working on

---

We need to talk. I'll send you a PM. ;)

This is a great topic!!!!

I am brand new to fly fishing but not new to rods. Coming from a Bass and Saltwater background I NEVER thought that a "more expensive" rod would help me catch fish until I put aside the old "Tru Value" fiberglass rod that was passed down through generations it seems.

When it came to bass fishing days when I started fishing local tournaments I was shocked to see how the "pro's" had sooooo many "high end" rods. Well I simply could not afford them. When I was asked if I would like to try my first partner's pro rig I jumped at the opportunity! Here is the catch...he stated I should use my reel with it to see the true difference. While I wasn't amazed I was actually surprised at how it cast. Was it night and day....no....but I wasn't experienced enough to notice ;)

I am brand new to fly fishing. Our local shop had a Fly Fishing Expo, for lack of a better term, this weekend. There were manufacturer reps and there was a TON of rods to cast. I found that the $800 and up rods were nice but the $200 rod (as an example) felt better FOR ME! Am I missing out? Not sure. However I ended up picking up an Orvis 3wt that simply "felt" good in my hands. I don't cast well as I am new to this but the folks at the local shop did not steer me to something I might not notice in an $800 rod setup.

I am happy with my purchase and happy that there were folks that did NOT steer me towards something that would either break the bank or that I would not appreciate (for lack of a better term). Perhaps in the future I will be able to appreciate the differences in various fly rods but for now the rod I purchased I will be happy with!!!

"I am happy with my purchase and happy that there were folks that did NOT steer me towards something that would either break the bank or that I would not appreciate (for lack of a better term). Perhaps in the future I will be able to appreciate the differences in various fly rods but for now the rod I purchased I will be happy with!!!"

Bingo. At this point, you did the right thing. You're happy and, as you progress, you MAY want to "upgrade". It's what fits you that counts, price tag and label be da.ned. Welcome to the wonderful world of fly fishing!

Chuck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeCO

... but the $200 rod (as an example) felt better FOR ME! Am I missing out? Not sure. However I ended up picking up an Orvis 3wt that simply "felt" good in my hands. I don't cast well as I am new to this but the folks at the local shop did not steer me to something I might not notice in an $800 rod setup.

---

Generally speaking, more costly rods are lighter and faster. Lighter it good. However a novice caster has yet to develop the timing, appropriate application of power, and sensitivity to drive a Ferrari. A Chevy rod is better for novices. The slightly heavier weight it not noticed, and the slower rod bends regardless of technique, timing, inadvertent twitches, and casts the line. Later you might outgrow it and spend more if you can feel the difference and your first rod is tiring or 'underpreforming'. It is the same with golf clubs, tennis rackets and skiis. At the beginning you don't want something that twitches when you twitch and requires your tool to be your second skin 'cause you are not that comfortable in it yet.

Excellent advice!!! I am really fortunate to pick up some thoughts here! I am also fortunate to be able to attend some casting classes with Project Healing Waters that start in May. I can't wait!!!! I had hand surgery this morning and I should be healed up by then!!!!

Mike,

If your hand isn't totally healed, take the casting classes anyway and cast with your 'off hand' or 'weak hand' whatever you want to call it. You will still learn the timing, which is so very important when casting, and you will learn to cast with your off hand, something that can come in very handy at times.

Larry ---sagefisher---

That is great advice Larry, how many times do we need to use an "off hand" to reach a spot. It's strange, I can get my left hand to cast pretty well (comparatively speaking) but I have issues getting my right hand to do the left hand thing (manage the line.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse

That is great advice Larry, how many times do we need to use an "off hand" to reach a spot. It's strange, I can get my left hand to cast pretty well (comparatively speaking) but I have issues getting my right hand to do the left hand thing (manage the line.)

---

Same here -- I can cast left handed, but can't double haul.
Casting with the "off" hand is a skill worth cultivating.

Outstanding advice! Hopefully it will be healed in time but casting "off hand" is something that I was very comfortable with for bass fishing. I regularly practice "off hand" for shooting so doing so with a fly rod is probably a skill I should get comfortably in the future.

Mike

I have found that the biggest difference between higher end rods and other rods tend to be lighter in weight than less expensive rods. Many high end rods are faster in action, but that is changing as more companies are offering slower graphite rods. My experience has been that as you go up in rod weights, lighter weight makes a difference.

My three and four weight rods are old, and they are relatively heavy. That does not matter because I can cast those rods all day without getting fatigued. It is a different matter if I am fishing with a seven or an eight weight rod all day. My newer Orvis Hydros and St. Croix Legend Elite seven and eight weight rods feel are less fatiguing to cast than the less expensive rods of the same line weight that now serve as spares. Both the Hydros and Legend Elite are fast rods, but they both feel like I am casting a rod that is a lower line weight.

I try not to cast too many high rods, because the goods ones usually feel really good in the hand and I get rod envy.