Trout flies and color

I have read from several "Experts" that fly color doesen't matter. If so I am wasting a bunch of time and money on stuff I'm tying flies with. Think about it! if color doesen't matter would our flies all be a boring dull grey? Would the beautiful traditional flies exist? I know a lot of great tyers who go to a lot of pains to get that bug they are tying just the right shade and that has been the traditon since Dame Juliania wrote her Treatisie. For myself, I really enjoy creating flies that imitate the size, shape and COLOR of Insects. I think color does matter. At least It gives me confidence in the thing on the end of my leader if it looks like the real thing. I believe that confidence in the fly that you are using is one of the greatest tools we use to catch fish And mine are going to match the size, shape and color as best as I can make it. What do you think?

When the trout aren't biting copper/brown, I try black. If they aren't hitting black, I'll try white. If those 3 fail (which is seldom), I'll try flies with more than one color...like olive/black or orange/black for example.
Some days the fish show definite preference for one color over another. That tells me color DOES matter.

I can't speak to precise color matching to a natural fly/nymph/pupa, however, simply because my fishing isn't that sophisticated yet. :)

I think that both color and size are quite important. I fish a small walk in lake that has a good population of brookies. I usually carry three different colors of flies. These flies are all the same size and the same pattern. Brown ranks number one ,black number two and grey a distant number three. This has happened on several trips to the lake.

Also size seems to be important. I think fish are prone to ignore flies that are too big or too small.

Tim

Tim

In my experience color matters more when fishing under the surface. However, fly colors change when wet depending on the materials. What you think is orange when dry, it could become a brown under a couple of feet of water (assuming good water clarity). On top, you can get along most of the time with light vs. dark colors. For example a light gray dun to fish a sulfur hatch.
M

I don't know of anyone who says that color does not matter at all at least in the part of the fly that is in the water (wings are another matter). I do believe that it is near the bottom of the scale of importance. For me the most important factor is presentation including movement in the materials followed by size and then silhouette of the fly. When I am satisfied with all of those things I will try to match the the color as closely as I can. While I try to have fairly exact matches for the insects I expect to encounter I have caught many fish with general imitations chosen by that criteria. I also admit to fishing colorful attractors at times but who says I have to be consistent. I'm doing this for fun!

Color also became important when we arrange them in contrasting pattern. think about the zebra pattern. All black with silver stripes.
M

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Originally Posted by oldster

I have read from several "Experts" that fly color doesen't matter. If so I am wasting a bunch of time and money on stuff I'm tying flies with. Think about it! if color doesen't matter would our flies all be a boring dull grey? Would the beautiful traditional flies exist? I know a lot of great tyers who go to a lot of pains to get that bug they are tying just the right shade and that has been the traditon since Dame Juliania wrote her Treatisie. For myself, I really enjoy creating flies that imitate the size, shape and COLOR of Insects. I think color does matter. At least It gives me confidence in the thing on the end of my leader if it looks like the real thing. I believe that confidence in the fly that you are using is one of the greatest tools we use to catch fish And mine are going to match the size, shape and color as best as I can make it. What do you think?

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Who are the "experts" you have read?

Trout do have color vision.
It is one of the last features a trout makes out when approaching an insect or fly.
If you have good presentation, good size, and good shape, why not also have good color????
Why not?
Most real experts I know say it can be an issue, so why not take it into account???

What is the possible advantage of not using appropriate color?

Here's my question: if there are rusty spinners on the water, do you think a green spinner would work as well as a rust colored one?

There are those rare times when you could toss a kitchen sink out and get a fish, then, color really doesn't matter.

However, those are very rare times and the rest of the time color and to a lesser degree, size, do matter, very much.

Since we never know for sure just what will peak the interest of the fish at that particular time and day, that is why we have so many colors of the same style of fly.

Rainbowchaser brought out a very good point. Presentation is far more important than color. No matter what the color of fly, if you don't present it properly then you will not catch near as many fish.

Larry ---sagefisher---

I also listed presentation first.
However, one's presentation is not the issue when deciding whether or not to match the color of the insect you are imitating. Your presentation abilities are extremely important, but they are what they are. Then, it comes down to picking the correct size, shape, and color of the fly to imitate the insect.

If you were to take two fishermen of the same presentation skills, then it comes to the fly as to which one might be the more successful.

IMO presentation, profile, and size trump color. A lot of days, I could probably do as well with a well presented Adams or Royal Coachman in the right size than with a more exact colored imitation. However, there are certain conditions, certain lies, and certain fish where that more exact imitation might be needed and who's to know in advance when you might run into that situation. So I try to match the size, profile, and color of the bugs that are on the water -- just in case.

Also, for me, learning about the different bugs -- what they are, when they hatch, what size and color they are -- and having flies to match them adds to the enjoyment. of the experience. That is, it's more fun to catch a trout during a fall BWO hatch on a Baetis dry fly that I tied for that hatch than on an Adams.

Even the flyfisherman'so common names for the insects we try to imitate have "color" in the name......blue Winged Olive, Pale Morning Dun, Rusty Spinner, Gray Drake, March Brown, Mahogany Dun, etc., etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

Even the flyfisherman'so common names for the insects we try to imitate have "color" in the name......blue Winged Olive, Pale Morning Dun, Rusty Spinner, Gray Drake, March Brown, Mahogany Dun, etc., etc., etc.

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Yes, they do. However, that may have more to do with the fact that we recognize the different insects by color rather than the fish recognizing them by color.

I'm trying to remember who (Charlie Fox, maybe? Bergman?) who would demonstrate holding an insect overhead in the day light, and it's color was always black. Only when the sun was low on the horizon did color become visible. (This probably pertains more to dry flies than, say nymphs.)

There's an article in the current issue of American Angler entitled "Confessions of a Color Heretic". He puts forth the argument that color almost never matters, although he does allow that in off-color water, a color that's easier for the fish to see is more likely to be taken. I don't 100% agree with him; if for no other reason that there are other times when visibility comes into play, and there's still the matter of light vs dark as opposed to hue. I've fished the white fly hatch a couple of times with two otherwise identical soft hackles, one white and one dark just to see what would happen, and as we would all like to believe, the dark one didn't get much attention. OTOH, I've fished peacock herl bodied dries during a sulfur hatch before and done fairly well. I think that color may very well matter in some circumstances, but it's a distant third to presentation and form.

Here's my question for you: if Western Green Drakes were hatching, and the fish were keyed on them, and you have two exact size , shape and structured flies: A bright olive colored one; And a brown colored one.

Which fly do you think would be the more effective.......fished with the same skill level of presentation?

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

Here's my question for you: if Western Green Drakes were hatching, and the fish were keyed on them, and you have two exact size , shape and structured flies: A bright olive colored one; And a brown colored one.

Which fly do you think would be the more effective.......fished with the same skill level of presentation?

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Hmm, never having seen a Western Green Drake I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I'd say that 50% of the time it would make no difference, and the rest of the time, lighting and/or water clarity might favor one or the other at different times. If they're a daytime hatch, and hatch in bright sunlight, I'd be inclined to say it's more like 90% of the time that it doesn't matter. (Assuming dry flies.)

I just thought of another case where color probably does matter: the right mix of colors can give the appearance of motion, which does a difference. Grizzly on a Griffith's Gnat works better than a solid color. Mixed grizzly and brown is, I believe what has made the Adams as successful as it is.

1. Size
2. Action
3. Shape
4. Color

In that order...but tell that to the Trout that jump all over these things, just to prove "they" don't know:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps38a9cbec.jpg

Kingrey's Silver Streak (BWO)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...psb9e74aed.jpg

Palinista Midge

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps801d721b.jpg

Moo's Blue Midge


Go figure...;)


PT/TB

The latest (March/April 2014) issue of American Angler has an editorial on pg. 72 by Bruce Ingram titled. "Confessions of a Color Heretic" in which he states, "the color of our flies rarely has anything to do with whether ... trout ... strike our offering."

I emailed him that color does matter. In his article, he gave examples of fish hitting the wrong color flies. I referred him to a post in which I written about selectivity and how it develops in trout; and why even during a hatch, some fish behave non selectively.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/fo...e-feeders.html

Selectivity develops by a process called operant conditioning. Bruce wrote me back that this was anthropormophic thinking, but he is incorrect.

This is behavior from the study of pigeons and rats by BF Skinner. Operant Conditioning applies to fish as well, and I referred him to the youtube video below that shows behavior modification in a goldfish by operant conditioning using food as a reward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRcNqNvQZ9U

Food is the exact reward through which selective feeding is developed. When a trout takes an object that it thinks could be food and is rewarded with food it gradually becomes conditioned to seek that food reward by taking the same object. By repetition and continually being rewarded with food, selective feeding behavior develops.

Operant conditioning works by punishment as well. When a trout takes a fly pattern and is rewarded with a hook, it gradually becomes conditioned to avoid that patterns. This is how trout gradually will begin to avoid certain patterns and a "hot" pattern eventually cools off.

Bruce's second error is that he does not realize that a fly fisher, by the choice of his fly, is performing a sampling experiment. He is sampling the fish in the river for the fish that is susceptible to his fly. So when fish are feeding non selectively and are not selective to color, he will catch fish.

Due to population variance, the degree of selectivity among the fish and even if most of the fish are selective to color, there will be some that are not and those are the ones he will catch.

This population variance is is exactly why the "hatch breaker" strategy works. It is why a Royal Wulff can take a fish when most of the fish are feeding selectively on tricos. This does not disprove selectivity at all. What is proves is population variance. Population variance is why a fly that does not match color can take fish even if most of the fish are selective to color.

Finally he ignores the basic logic of reducing possible variables for rejecting a fly. When a fly fisher chooses a fly color, he is making a wager/bet whether color matters or does not matter. A decision matrix as to whether color matters can be created as follows. The Left Column is the wager of the fly fisher and the Top Row represents reality. The 4 intersecting boxes are the results of the fly fisher's actions meeting reality.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...ps55962d37.png

The decision matrix shows that matching color is as effective or more effective than not matching color in every possible situation. So the best strategy is to match color.

redietz I couldnt disagree with you more when it comes to color! I've held bugs up to the sky in bright sun to see what the trout sees and I can tell you I've never seen black. I tie many flies with different blends because of it. If your fishing over trout in catch and release areas size color and silouette will always be important. Presentation is what I do after I made the previous decision on what fly to tie on. I can tell you this an Adams and the Griffiths Gnat will not catch trout in the rivers I fish. Too bad to because the Griffiths Gnat was once a favorite.

A fly I tie by the hundreds every year for dolly varden uses UV dubbing... Tied without UV it has seriously under-performed the same fly with it side-by-side. When the fly is switched to one with UV dubbing it proceeds to catch fish on virtually every cast. The difference has been dramatic on too many occasions to think the UV does not make a difference.

That is more than proof enough to me that color matters and often matters a great deal.

Sea-run cutthroats favor red in the fly by a serious margin, in my experience. Again, it is something I have seen when fish were aggressive to some flies (with red) and not at all interested in non-red flies.
art

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Originally Posted by Gene

redietz I couldnt disagree with you more when it comes to color! I've held bugs up to the sky in bright sun to see what the trout sees and I can tell you I've never seen black. I tie many flies with different blends because of it. If your fishing over trout in catch and release areas size color and silouette will always be important. Presentation is what I do after I made the previous decision on what fly to tie on. I can tell you this an Adams and the Griffiths Gnat will not catch trout in the rivers I fish. Too bad to because the Griffiths Gnat was once a favorite.

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Amen, Gene.

OK. Here's my order: Presentation, size, shape, color in that order.But who really knows. Our opinions are made with the experiences we have had. I've caught fish on bare hooks and they were not snagged either. I've caught fish on some of the most outlandish flies you could think of. I find that sometimes fish will hit most anything and some times you can't catch one on anything. When I am catching fish like crazy, i'll change flies to just to see just what they will take. Fly fishing is my passion because you never learn it all. Thanks to you all for your opinions and thanks to nature for it's mysteries.
Oldster

I don't exactly remember Gary LaFontaine's theory on colors and light, but basically it was based on "gray day gray fly" type stuff. Certain colors for certain atmospheric conditions. I'm sure color has something to do with why fish grab something, I'm just not sure how to conduct even quasi scientific testing. But I do think it would be foolish to fish a hatch with the wrong color. Now if there weren't an active hatch, who knows? There are plenty of tales of using hoppers during a trico hatch and catching fish.

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Originally Posted by Gene

If your fishing over trout in catch and release areas size color and silouette will always be important .

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You'll never hear me argue against silhouette -- as seen from below.

I do fish over trout in heavily pressure catch and release areas at least once a week, and usually more often. I've experiment with color extensively over several decades, deliberately fishing flies with colors that don't match the hatch, often in a two fly team with one that doesn match the hatch. (Of course, only to human eyes; who knows what fish perceive.) Color matters very little, especially compared to factors like how high does the fly float (for dries) where in the column it's presented (for wets), whether it's moving or dead drifted (for both), size, impression on the water, shape, etc. For a dry, parachute vs. compardun vs. conventionally hackled all matter far more than color. Composition of dubbing -- does it trap air bubbles? -- matter more than it's color.

As I've said, color sometimes does matter -- if it's a case of visibility, or a case of presenting the appearance of motion.

Presentation starts with fly selection -- no matter how much floatant you put on a beadhead, for example, it's going to be hard to present as a dry fly. (Extreme example -- but a high riding dry doesn't make a very good emerger, etc).

It may very well be true that an Adams or Griffith's Gnat don't work on your waters -- although I've taken nice fish on difficult streams like the Letort on both -- but I'd bet that factors other than color are involved.

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Originally Posted by Silver Creek

The latest (March/April 2014) issue of American Angler has an editorial on pg. 72 by Bruce Ingram titled. "Confessions of a Color Heretic" in which he states, "the color of our flies rarely has anything to do with whether ... trout ... strike our offering."
.

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I agree with you that his logic was very flawed, even if do think that color is low on the importance scale.

Do you have any data on how many times a fish needs to be caught and released on a fly before it learns to avoid it? I've released trout that immediately, before swimming off, grabbed the same fly that I had just taken out of their mouth, now dangling in the water, while I reviving them. I've also broken off fish, and retrieved my fly immediately after when they took an identical fly. They must learn at some point, but I don't think it's from a one time experience.

I think you're making a possibily unfounded assumption in your truth table (which remind's me of Pascal's wager) and that is that "wager for color" necessarily means that flies are more effective if color matters. Let's assume for sake of argument that color does matter. What we perceive as the correct color (in a fly that is not yet wet) may look entirely different to the fish, especially after it's wet. Wager "for color" if this is case may cause us to not try a more effective fly which doesn't appear to us to be correct.

Bottom line... If color DID NOT MATTER in some way, then everything out there would be the same color. And things would be extremely boring. So YES, color matters, in about a billion different ways, which is probably about the same number of ways in which it does not matter... That being said, there is no way we as fly tiers can REPRODUCE the colors and the way fish interpret them- by using our materials compared to the natural substances that fish food is made of. We can probably get close, but it is not possible to know for sure. I'm just happy that fish are willing to be caught.

From my own personal observations color like any other variable, depth, presentation, size, shape, profile, vibration, speed, smell, visibility, movement, electromagnetism, etc...... that will trigger a response from a fish sometimes matters and sometimes doesn't. I fish a lot of teams of flies to give the fish an instantaneous choice and the results can be surprising, even fly location on the team can be factor on certain days. Once you think you have the fish figured out, they can make you feel pretty stupid the next time out, it can be quite humbling.

There are days where fish will have a preference of selection and there are days when they won't. Some days one specific variable is the trigger and other times it doesn't make a difference in the world. There are many reasons in favor of and favor against any of these variables. It is always interesting to see these debates and watch people argue with each other until they are blue in the face. Fishing boils down to playing the game of selection which personally I believe where the fun of it is. I love the great diversity of flies and gear that target all these variables. It keeps things moving and makes me think, and pops my fat head when I need it.:D

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Originally Posted by redietz

I agree with you that his logic was very flawed, even if do think that color is low on the importance scale.


I think you're making a possibily unfounded assumption in your truth table (which remind's me of Pascal's wager) and that is that "wager for color" necessarily means that flies are more effective if color matters. Let's assume for sake of argument that color does matter. What we perceive as the correct color (in a fly that is not yet wet) may look entirely different to the fish, especially after it's wet. Wager "for color" if this is case may cause us to not try a more effective fly which doesn't appear to us to be correct.

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An angler only has to match color once when color matters for the truth table to be accurate. Whether an angler can always match color does not invalidate the truth table. Result will always equal or better when we try to match color.

Well stated Micropteris, I totally agree.

Several years ago I was fishing a small spring pond in Wisconsin. The trout were unusually active, and I had little luck catching any at first. Then I put on a small bright orange scud pattern- and I saw some race to it from yards away. It wasn't that they could now see my fly, because they pretty much ignored the same pattern in subdued "scud" colors cast close enough to be easily seen. Fun time- but only the orange worked that day.

Chuck

Right Silver

If you take the 'truth table' that Silver posted as accurate, then you'd have to say that color matters.

But if you use logic on it, then you have to realize that 'trying to match color' is where this theory has some issues. If I 'try' to match color, who's to say that I'm correct as to that color? It only proves that if I keep trying to 'match' color, then when I finally catch a fish, I believe that I've successfully done so. On the same stream, another angler 'trying' to match color may find an entirely different color that catches a fish, and he believes that he's found the correct color as well.

On any given day on every water in the world, there is not 'one' pattern that is the only one that 'works', nor is there 'one' color that only works.

In reality, though, I think we are overanalyzing this whole thing. Trout are fish, and not very developed fish. To try to apply any logic to individual trout behavior gives them much more credit than their pea sized brains deserves.

Where I believe that color, or any other factor of your approach to fishing, matters, is in angler confidence. THAT is, in my experience, the most important factor in success. If you believe it matters, then it does. If you don't believe it matters, then it doesn't.

I have colors that I like to fish because they work for me. I seldom look at natural forage color in making a fly decision. I just fish what I have confidence in.

ymmv

Good Luck

Buddy

I periodically fish one particular river in SW Montana that has a large population of wild trout, and a variety of heavy insect hatches. One of my favorite sections of this river requires a hike of about a mile and a half, and as a result does not get fished as much as other parts of the river.

I often fish 2 or 3 specific pools and riffles there that I know from past experience have many trout in them, and it is not unusual for me to catch 30 or more in several hours of fishing, most of which are often caught on dry flies.

Because I know what flies should work, I mostly fish those patterns, sizes and colors that have worked best for me there in the past, matching the hatch as best as I can, and that normally works.
However, there are times when I have changed the fly colors, keeping everything else the same - same fish, same presentation, same time of day, etc. etc., and had MUCH more success with one colored fly versus another.

I'm not saying that color is the most important ingredient to successful trout fishing, but I am saying that I have often caught more trout on one specific colored fly versus another. Thats's all the proof I need.

I just received and read this week's Blue Ribbon Fly Shop newsletter, by Craig Matthews in West Yellowstone. Here are some comments he makes about fly color:

Blew on Blue soft hackle

BRF wrote the book on fall soft hackle fishing for the huge run-up brown and rainbow trout in the Madison River above Hebgen, Earthquake and Ennis Lakes. World famous soft hackled patterns like our Shakey Bieley, September Song, Full Dressed Red and Lucky Bucky originated here and we are very proud of these fly patterns. One old customer recently accused us saying, "you guys come up with these new flies so you can sell them", to which we said, "OK well yes we do, we are kind of in business for this, but we also try and come up with new flies that fool fish along the way"!
Last fall a big discussion began at the fly tying desk here at BRF about the color purple and how deadly some flies were tied with it, flies like the Purple Haze, our Purple Bieley and others. At that time Bucky and Aaron were spending hours daily swinging fall soft hackles for the big up trout on the river and decided to "find a new purple". They began tying big fall soft hackle patterns in several different colors and after extensive testing they both came to the same conclusion; the color blue worked best on bright-sunny days in September and October for the big run up trout. How did the fly get its name? A group of youngsters came by the shop soliciting for a local high school program and we asked them what moniker the fly should go by and the 4 young ladies decided on Blew on Blue, so there you go! This one worked for us last fall not only on the Madison, but also on the Gardner and Yellowstone Rivers big fall brown trout! And boy does it look nice in a fly box!

I've come to the conclusion on about two different fly fishing items: The first is if the fish are really "biting" they will just about hit anything. The second is that color is a mystery. I've tried a color in the same stream, about the same time of day and about the same weather, one time with yellow and I could do no wrong, then go back with the same fly/color and could not even get a pass. Tie on a green color and I'm back in business. Go back with the green another time, nothing doing, and then it's beige that gets the action. Probably the green and the beige have been the most productive and are the first one's tried. But when I'm tying up some flies I vary the color just for times like I've already posted.

For me, color and size matter most of the time, specifically during a hatch. I have been in two epic hatches over the past 8 years ( true, I don't get out much). The first was in the month of May and the sulphurs filled the sky for almost 3 hours. Fish were feeding, some two feet away from me. I had never seen anything like it. I was fishing dries and also emergers that were the same color and had great success. I tied on a small brown PT for about 5 minutes and could not get a bite for nothing. I only lfeft it on for five minutes because with a dry or an emerger I was getting bit on every cast. Presentation did not seems to be very important that day.
The second epic hatch I was in was late October, cold, sprinkling rain, and very windy. BWO's started and hatched for the next 2.5 hours. Again, the fish ate up emergers and dries, same color, same size, but would not touch something else.
But it seems I can always catch fish outside the hatch on flies that are not of the "match the hatch" variety .... the rainbow warrior is a good example, or any fly with a lot of flash or bright color.
For me, size and color, presentation etc matters but not all the time.

I also don't agree that color does not matter. What I see most is comments about, " adjust the color of a fly to accommodate the colors in your area".

Ray, why do you think they recommend that?

Of course, there is another perspective regarding fly color. Fly colors that appeal to fisherman get fished, fly colors that don't appeal, don't get fished. No fly I know of has ever caught a fish while in a vest pocket.

I remember reading a quote a long time ago - "Always cast your fly with confidence" Theodore Gordon (1914) . If you think color may make a difference to your success, it may.

Had you been a dedicated bass fisherman back in the '70, you would have read the articles in BassMaster magazine about color and what worked and why. The bass fishing suppliers spent millions of dollars doing scientific research, came out with the ColorLector to determine the best color to use depending of light, depth, water clarity, etc. The lure manufacturers came out with a bunch of really strange colors, which were supposed to catch fish. It never seem to grab the imagination of the bass fisherman like depth and temp instruments did. The results were decided color matters and changes based upon several variables.

BTW, blue and purple are two of the favorite colors for plastic worms among bass fishermen and have been for a long time. One famous fisherman, lure manufacturer, likes white plastic grubs on jigs and black when he runs out of white.