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I have the impression that most fly fishers these days fish "catch and release". I assume they debarb their hooks. While many of us have flat faced pliers to use for the purpose I suggest that the other folks consider using their vises to do the job. If you have a vise with smooth jaws it is a very simple, convenient and obvious task. Your vise will easily handle the job with no damage. Try it. :D
I debard all my hooks. Even though I keep fish it makes the hook come out of me easier.
Rick
That is why I de-barb also.
Always wondered about people who do this. How exactly is using the vise "simple" or "convenient", unless of course your desk is so cluttered you can't find your pliers? Seriously, time yourself and see how fast you can debarb hooks in your vise (and be sure to try some smaller sizes) versus using pliers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Kunz
Of course speed is not the all important goal to a casual tier, but I personally see no reason to waste time that could be spent cranking out another pattern by using a suboptimal tool like the vise when a readily available, cheap, and efficient alternative is available. I usually tie flies a dozen at the time, so I take out a dozen hooks, debarb with pliers, and start tying. When I tie with friends who debarb with the vise, they are usually still fiddling with adjustments (or looking for a dropped hook) by the time I've finished. Of course, YMMV.
I'm with whatfly insofar as I see no advantage to using a vise versus a pair of flat nose pliers or non-serrated hemostats(needle holders).
Of course you could just buy barbless hooks in the first place. Or is that too simple a solution? I recently bought a few (7 thousand) barbless hooks. There is a greater range available today than ever before.
I also question the whether fishing barbless is a good thing. (Doesn't stop me doing it though). Take two extreme scenarios.
Angler one hooks a fish. He is using a heavyweight hook that is barbed. He is confident with the hook hold so quickly plays. the fish. Takes the hook out and returns the fish carefully. Yes he has done more harm to the fish by using a barb than he would have done without.
Angler two hooks a fish. He is using a barbless hook, as is often required for C&R on UK fisheries. Even with the extended range of barbless hooks available most tend to be light wire. Therefore his tippet is lighter. He is not as confident of the hook hold with hiss set up so plays the fish much more carefully. To the point were the fish is exhausted. On the bank he drops the fish so just kicks it back into the water. (I've seen it happen). He has done far more damage to that fish than angler one did to his. If he is challenged he responds "I'm fishing barbless so its ok to return fish."
Now I know these are opposite extremes (I have been unable to exactly recreate the scenario of catching a fish with both kinds of hook), but the question still remains. Does the extra hook hold of a barbed hook result in less damage than the exhaustion, and lactic acid build up, caused by playing a fish slowly? I can't come down on either side, but it does make me less critical of those who use barbed hooks.
Cheers,
C.
I have a Regal vise, it's like using the pliers in reverse:D
AlanB,
Surely, by now, we can accept that barbless is less damaging on fish? Not sure why a barbless hook would lead one to play a fish too long. That has not been my personal experience or my observation of others. The water I fish most is "barbless only". I think the State (and before it, the Conservancy) has good information on denying the use of barbed hooks. It only seems logical and reasonable to me.
All the flies sold in the fly shops near this river are barbless. I either use barbless hooks or bend the barb. Sometimes, I forget to do so at the vise and do so on the river with my hemostats. Quite easy to do........
When I used to debarb my hooks, I always used the vise. It only takes seconds, and you are only handling the bare hook once. Fewer drops, especially with the smaller hooks, for me. Where I fish, using barbless hooks is not required by law.
The reason I 'debarbed' was more for the 'easier out of me' than any concern for the fish. After a while I noticed some issues with the number of fish I hooked versus landed. The numbers were significant enough that I stopped the practice and found myself landing more fish. In any event, I no longer debarb my hooks. Since then I've gotten a few hooks into clothing that I've had to mess with a bit to get them out. I'll deal with this to catch more fish. The hooks I've gotten into my flesh came out without issue. Maybe I've gotten better at fly control, or maybe I've just been luckier over the last decade.
I do find Alan's point interesting. One thing I've done over the last several years is up the size of my tippet, from 4# flouro to 8# (I'm mostly streamer fishing with sinking lines in a very clear reservoir for smallmouth and trout). I was concerned that the thicker line would lessen my strikes, but so far it hasn't been an issue. I'm catching more fish, larger fish, and landing them faster. Only had two trout that died when I was unable to resuscitate them this season (that I knew about, delayed mortality numbers I can't address). That's way down from past seasons.
Buddy
Removing a barbed hook or a barbless hook stuck in you neck (deep enough to go beyond the barb or where the barb would have been).......which would do less damage to your neck? Perhaps the same is true with regards to removing a hook from the trout's mouth?
In "barbless only" water, it doesn't matter what the fisher thinks. It is the regulation.
There is only one barbless stream I know of in this area. It is a closely managed stream, C&R only and produces some very nice fish. I am told the DNR officers use a tee shirt to check hooks to qualify them as barbless if they were originally with barbs. What criteria do other areas use.
You can also check by rubbing mono loop from the point back up to the bend.
Jesse: do you think designating the water catch and release only and barbless has anything to do with the water sustaining good populations of fish?
In this country carp fishing has become a rabid religion, with huge numbers of people pursuing it with a zeal most churches do not see from their congregation. You would not believe the lengths and costs these people go to. A friend once described them collectively as "stranger than fiction" to me. There is not a carp fishery in the land that will let you fish now if you don't have a special mat on which to place your fish while you unhook it. They even go to the extent of dressing the hook wound in a carp's mouth with antiseptic gel before returning it. At one point in time carp fishing became almost totally barbless.
Then it started to change. It was noticed that the spear on a barbless hook is longer than on a similar barbed hook. Also that the barbless hook is able to move around in the hole more than a barbed one is. The final thing was that barbless hooks often penetrated to a greater depth, even into the bone of the fish's jaw. Now there a growing number of fisheries where barbless hooks are banned, as they are considered to do more harm to the fish.
My point is that there are valid arguments both ways that deserve consideration. If your fishery requires barbless hooks then you should not use barbed ones. The blanket banning of barbed hooks though is not as clear cut a decision as it at first seems.
Personally, if I can get a particular hook in barbless, I will tie on that in preference to de barbing a hook. Hooks have corrosion resistant coatings until you de barb them.
It also appeals to my rather cynical outlook that there is a well known British tackle manufacturer that has a fishery, which they market as a premier C&R fishery. It is very expensive to fish there. The same company also market a range of hooks. Their entire range of hooks is banned from use on their fishery. They have a strict "barbless hooks only" rule. Not de barbed and barbless, barbless only. Yet they do not produce a single barbless hook in their range. I should not go on, I am making a conceited effort not to be cynical.
Cheers,
C.
I believe the barb has 2 purposes. 1- to keep the worm on and 2- make the hook! Why barbless hooks cost more.
With the exception of TMC they don't cost more. Last lot I bought cost me about $10/ thousand.
Cheers,
C.
Alan,
Regarding your story about the tackle company that doesn't market barbless hooks, regardless of that, why do you think their private water is maintained as barbless only?
Don't you think the mouth on a carp, and, therefore, how they take a hook is quite different from a trout's?
PS where is my Small Western Green Drake pattern?
Thanks
I don't think the wound created by the hook is all that different. I suspect that they just haven't thought it through.
I've given up wondering about that company. They were famous for making bed springs that they sold as fly lines. They had so much memory that when you cast the line retrieved the fly for you.
I'll fire up the camera when I get back from the doctors today. (I fell in just over a week ago and have come down with flu like symptoms. Better get it checked out.)
Cheers,
A.
Whether you use your vise or pliers, I think the important point is to debarb before you tie the fly. I do occasionally break or otherwise mess up a hook debarbing it, so why risk that after you've invested materials and time tying the fly? Also why spend valuable time on stream, maybe during the last minutes of a hatch, debarbing flies when you could be fishing?
I agree with you guys but I was mainly directed my suggestion to the Newbies. Flat nose pliers are pretty low on their list of priorities. I suggest the vise process at my sessions just to get the folks started.
I as a matter of course, I always debarb my hooks when tying. For some strange reason on my last trip, I hooked a 20" brown in the jawbone(?) on a #14 caddis and had a difficult time removing the hook even with forceps. After some concern about over handling the fish, I finally got the hook out and the released brown looked OK afterwards. I need to verify that the barbs are completely down next time when tying. I judge a good hook by noticing if the barbs either just bend or snaps. Snapping barbed hooks tend to have more carbon content but making it more brittle.
I de-barb on the water....and only where required. With trout-sized patterns, I have never really found removing the hook to be a struggle. Especially with forceps.
I do not buy in to the damage issue. I feel a barbless hook moves around while playing a fish much more than a barbed hook. Causing just as much damage in many cases. A small barbed hook stays put. Just my thoughts.
I do however feel with larger hooks the damage can be an issue. Mainly do to the size of the barb itself.
DNR officers will also use a cotton ball to check for barbless hooks, if any cotton is hooked they consider that NOT barbless.
For those who use a vise to squash the barb flat, have you notice any damage to the vise jaws by doing this???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse
Did I read that right? $10 for 1000 hooks? Pray tell, where do you get your hooks, and what kind are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanB
No. Not with my Regals. Never had a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by popperfly
Ralph
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/i...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AlanB http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/i...post-right.png
With the exception of TMC they don't cost more. Last lot I bought cost me about $10/ thousand.
Cheers,
C.
Did I read that right? $10 for 1000 hooks? Pray tell, where do you get your hooks, and what kind are they?
I would also like to know where you get barbless hooks for $10 per thousand. I've been getting mine for a little over $10 per hundred.
They were a job lot of Hyabusa hooks I picked up. Wish I could get a regular supply. Size 16, 18, 20, 22, and 24 down eye light wire and 18 & 20 straight eye also light wire. Usually when I spot a deal like this I don't have cash on hand to take advantage. This time I did, and, as I have a shop to tie for, on barbless, in that size range, I'm very happy I did. They were 57 UKP for the lot including P&P that works out at about $10 a thousand. The best regular supply I have found is from Finney's Flies at 6 UKP (about $9) per 100.
Cheers,
A.
Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanB
Thanks. $9 per 100 isn't too bad a deal either.
Try Hagensfish.com They have what I think are Dai-Riki (same numbers) for about $60/1000. near the end of the catalogue.
Rick
THIS THREAD SEEMS TO WANDER INTO HOOK COST. To add my $.02 worth I'd suggest Eagle Claw from Cabela's. Thank you guys for the good comments on barbs.
So, Ray, any conclusion drawn?
Those who would, should; those who wouldn't, shouldn't, unless required by law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron haugh
I have recently started to debarb only because it is easier to remove the hook when the fish decides to take it deep and the fish spends less time out of the water. I have noticed a few more spit outs but it's all good.
Mortis,
Good point. We do the quick release when we get the fish to us. While having pressure on the trout suddenly point the rod at the fish thus releasing all pressure and the hook often releases from the trout