Nickel and Dimed by a guide/outfitter?

I went on a guided fishing trip with a friend of mine a few weeks back. It was two days in Montana, a walk wade on the Gallatin and a float trip on the Yellowstone.

Had a great time even though we didn't catch too many fish and certainly nothing very big.

We spent well over a thousand dollars for the service - actually closer to two.

At the end of the last day the outfitter did an inventory of every fly we used/lost and tippet material we used. He gave us the used flies and the started tippet spools - - along with a bill.

I didn't think that was appropriate and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I've used guides before in Colorado and Pennsylvania and never had that happen before. Is it a usual practice?

That practice seems to be more common in some areas than others.

I agree that is kind of lame. The guide/outfitter should have made you aware of all additional costs up front. Some do a good job of that and some do not.

I always ask before booking if the guide or outfitter's website, brochure, or other material is not clear.

And rarely will I book a guide that charges extra for leaders, tippet, flies , and other terminal gear unless it is customary for the region that I am fishing. And when I do I bring my own stuff.

I used to make a couple of trips a year to a lodge that charged additional for flies and other terminal tackle. This was spelled out in their materials. It was a great place so I just made sure I had my own stuff.

It is my opinion that anything expended on the water for the clients should be an overhead cost factored into the guide's rate but not everyone agrees.

Andrew,

I have used guides in the past that charged me for the flies I used, and they didn't even give me the flies. Others have had me purchase flies for the trip from their fly shop. That is all right but I prefer not to do it that way. Now days, the guides I use are the good guides. They cover the cost of the flies and tippet and split shot when nymphing, etc. For those guides, I make sure I give them a very healthy tip, they deserve it. As for the other guides who use the practice you mentioned, my tipping would really be on the minimal side. Always have a clear understanding with the guides and fly shop/outfitter as to all expenses they expect you to pay. Ask them up front so there are no surprises.

Larry ---sagefisher---

We charge for flies and complete leaders but not for tippet, floatant, etc. We thought about going "all inclusive" this year and charging accordingly (the shops that do so charge substantially more than we do), but we decided that wasn't really fair to people who tie their own flies or otherwise have a full arsenal. This is stated on our website and our itinerary sheets we mail out with the deposit receipts.

I rarely use guides. My son surprised me with a guide trip in Early July down the Madison. Great guide out of The TroutHunter in Island Park, Idaho. This guide did not charge us for flies or leaders or anything. He said a certain number of flies were included in the original cost of the trip.

Anyway, I have had guides before who charge you for the flies he picks out for you at the shop and you are charged. Then, after the trip, you can trade the unused flies for whatever other flies you might want.

Two different policies at shops in the same town of Island Park, Idaho.

Of more interest to me is the amount of the tip expected by the guides. They really rely on good tips as they only share in the cost of the trip with the outfitter. I asked a friend of mine, who runs the guide operation at a high volume guiding shop about the tips. As expected, he said the customary minimum is $100 per trip. If you have a "great" trip, you tip more..............

Just me, but I would have told him where he could stick the flies and tippet material.

How in the world did you spend close to $2,000 for 2 days of guided fishing? You must have used a LOT of flies.

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Originally Posted by John Rhoades

How in the world did you spend close to $2,000 for 2 days of guided fishing? You must have used a LOT of flies.

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Lets see. I have never used a guide but have friends that are guides. One day float or wade, $450.00, lunch and drinks $25.00 per person. gas to the pick up spot,? $15.00. flies $2.25 each. spools of flouro two @ $15.00. tip @100.00 each. So I would sat $800.00 per trip.

Aw, yes ... the age of greed that we are well into!

I'm sorry this practice left a bad taste in your mouth and I hope I don't come across as a smart mouthed punk or start a fight but here is my take...

I assure you that if the guide/outfitter supplies any flies, leaders, tippet, etc. they are charging you for them. If they don't take inventory at the end of the day and charge you for the individual items, they have already factored the cost of these items into their guide fee.

Put another way, we all pay for these types of things in everything we do. The grocery store has factored in the price of grocery bags into their prices, the gas station has factored in the price of the paper towel you use when you wash your windshield and the person you hire to build your deck is charging you for very nail and screw they use. Sometimes those costs are buried in the total cost and sometimes things are itemized.

I guess I would rather a guide charge me for every fly individually instead of burying that charge into their fee. What if they automatically factor in the cost of 12 flies and I only hang 6 in a tree?

Just my 2cents worth.

I too have used a guide many times in the past and have never seen this practice, nor would I use a guide outfit that subscribes to it. I have been asked to pay for the flies I used (which I think is fair), but any left over were always provided to me at the end of the day and the guide never picked out more than 6 or 8 flies total. While I understand that the guide has expenses (tippet, etc.) those need to be factored into the cost of the trip as the cost of doing business. At the end of the day the real issue is whether and Andrew and his friend knew going in they were going to be charged at the end of each day for consumables used on the trip. If they were not I think Andrew is completely justified in his complaint, if they were well then the complaint rings hollow.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Royce

I'm sorry this practice left a bad taste in your mouth and I hope I don't come across as a smart mouthed punk or start a fight but here is my take...

I assure you that if the guide/outfitter supplies any flies, leaders, tippet, etc. they are charging you for them. If they don't take inventory at the end of the day and charge you for the individual items, they have already factored the cost of these items into their guide fee.

Put another way, we all pay for these types of things in everything we do. The grocery store has factored in the price of grocery bags into their prices, the gas station has factored in the price of the paper towel you use when you wash your windshield and the person you hire to build your deck is charging you for very nail and screw they use. Sometimes those costs are buried in the total cost and sometimes things are itemized.

I guess I would rather a guide charge me for every fly individually instead of burying that charge into their fee.

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Of course. This goes without saying.

However, if there's profit margin in the flies, the guide may be incentivized to push his flies relative to the ones you've brought or tied. I much prefer to fish with my own ties and have been in situations in which I believe the practice of charging for flies has created some tension.

Besides, I find this practice completely tacky. Charge me a fee at the beginning. I'll tip at the end (I tip guides 20%+, so I know that's good) and we'll all leave on a good note.

In Europe, the airlines actually charge for a pop. Forget it. Put a couple of Euros on my ticket and give me a Coke.

There is no way that an average amount of consumables (flies, tippet, etc) is NOT factored into the price before the trip ever starts. So, itemizing little items at the end of a trip would mean to me either a very poorly executed business or an attempt to weasel out another few dollars. If the guide scrapes the bottom of a boat on a rock, is the sport expected to be charged for cosmetic repairs? No, wear and tear is factored into the cost of the day (or it damn well should be), and minor consumables are too.

A MINIMUM $100 tip is EXPECTED??? Holy crap. Anyone wonder why average everyday folks might think fly fishing is "elitist" ?

Royce, the make-or-break factor of a guide is not going to be how many flies you hang in a tree- If you lose more than average, the other clients pay for them, if you lose less than the average then you are paying for the next sport's flies. They are not out there to NOT make a profit.

The only time I could even consider using a guide would be if I was somehow somewhere I had absolutely no possibility of fishing on my own. I've been catching fish wherever I am, for my whole life and have never been able to afford the extravagance of guided trips- and if I would be paying someone my hard-earned cash to go fishing, I would expect them to do everything possible to make me happy and worry free, and they should be extremely happy to be doing it.

I believe that most accomplished anglers may occasionally use a guide as sort of "a way of renting a boat". There are certain rivers and sections of rivers that are best fished from a drift boat. This is especially true if you are on a fishing trip out West and don't have your own drift boat to get to those great fishing spots and/or cover miles and miles of good fishing waters.

As to the tip, the common price for 2 anglers on a full-day drift guided trip is 525. The average tipping percentage in the service industry (i.e., restaurants) is between 12% and 15%. At the accepted restaurant rate that would be approx. $80. But then, the wait staff doesn't spend much time with each customer and doesn't devote a full day to just two people............ And, they are using their equipment (boat, trailer, vehicle, etc.) and they are skilled - both in terms of fishing, reading the water, handling a boat, etc. They are licensed as well.

The guide spends all day with you. They work hard manipulating the drift boat in a heavy river to put you and your buddy in positions to hook some big fish. They often haul you and the boat a hundred miles or more (each way) in their vehicle; serve you and your buddy a shore lunch; etc., etc.

They deserve all they receive for the job they hold for maybe 4-5 months a year...........IMHO, that is.

$475, maybe a bit more or less at specific outfitters, will buy you a guided day of float/walk in fishing here on the Yellowstone and Gallatin for 2 anglers. Assuming that the guide's tip is a discretionary payment handled separately between the client and guide, and not billed through the outfitter, I'm still wondering how one could get an outfitter's bill of close to $2000 for 2 days.

Someone would have to go home with a couple fly boxes crammed full of flies I'd think.

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

the common price for 2 anglers on a full-day drift guided trip is 525.

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This strikes me as high.

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

The average tipping percentage in the service industry (i.e., restaurants) is between 12% and 15%.

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This is too low. 15 to 20.

I'll use a guide if I need a boat or don't really know the water. Money well spent for a guy to show me around for a day and maybe make a few marks in my DeLorme.

Have used many guides over the years on the Bighorn and out in Yellowstone and have never ever come across this practice at all. Good guide for two on a drift boat should not cost more than $500 per day and I do tip 100 bucks. The guide that I use on the Bighorn every year, Jamie Benedickt, furnishes everything and never ever worries about lost flies, even his most prized Morrish Hoppers. This guy will run you through an area with good fish and then row a long ways back UPSTREAM 3-4 times for you to keep fishing if you are hooking up good. He will also pay the shuttle twice if he has to get us pulled out of the river and run another stretch if we are not catching as many as he thinks we should be. He is the best by far and I will only use him when I go there, but you must book well in advance.
Here is the link to his website with the rates...........and he does hold to the rates and will not "upcharge" you. http://www.wildwestflyfishing.com/services.php

I've had guides that did charge for flies but most did not. Never did they charge for tippet and lunch and drinks were always included at no extra charge as part of the normal fee.

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Originally Posted by Steven

This strikes me as high.



This is too low. 15 to 20.

I'll use a guide if I need a boat or don't really know the water. Money well spent for a guy to show me around for a day and maybe make a few marks in my DeLorme.

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Steven,
Yes I tip 20% which makes my point. (that the tip should be about $100 and up....
Guide fees, like everything else, vary depending on supply and demand. Around 500 is the norm out West where I am most familiar with guides.

And, remember that the guide is normally working for an outfitter. So the guide only gets a % of the guide fee.
Rules are different amongst states as far as who can guide and who can be an outfitter.
In a state like Idaho, guides can only work for an outfitter. The number of outfitter licenses issued for certain geographical areas is limited.

This is a classic question of bundling vs. un-bundling. Do you bundle all the costs of a product/service into a single price that everyone pays--whether they use it or not--or do you price things separately so consumers only pay for what they actually use (but sometimes feel like they're being nickel and dimed).

I guide for a shop that does walk and wade trips in Rocky Mountain National Park. I take a selection of flies from the shop. The client gets charged for what I actually tie on. (They're the shop's flies. I don't make anything on them.) If the client has his own flies, I say, "Let's look in your fly box," and if there's something suitable, I tie it on. If I don't have confidence in his flies, I supply a shop fly. I figure he is paying some hundreds of dollars for a guided trip, and it doesn't make sense to compromise the results for 10 bucks. I do tell the client that they will be be charged for flies that I tie on, and I give them the survivors at the end of the trip. In our shop, the guide supplies tippet material, lead (when used) floatant, etc., and drinks, snacks or lunch depending on the trip duration. If the client needs a leader for his personal rod, he pays for it. Why shouldn't he?

Keep in mind that if you just went into a shop to buy flies, they would point out 5 or 6 must-have patterns, and you would buy 2-4 of each and not use most of them. If our client needs gear--rod, reel, waders, boots--we rent that for $15. There's another shop in town that bundles gear and flies in their trip cost, and, guess what, their trips run $25 per person more than ours. Take your choice.

On the matter of tipping, I agree with the observation that $100 on a $450 - $500 trip is about what you would pay in a decent restaurant. Occasionally I'm in the shop and a client asks about tipping. I say that it's up to them, but then supply the restaurant analogy. Most people tip about 20%.

I am sorry for my poor choice of words when I said closer to two thousand. I don't have the receipt but as I recall the trip was around 1,200 and then went up from there. The add ons were for the tip (no problem), renting waders and boots (no problem), flies and tippet material used (bad taste in my mouth).

I certainly understand the difference between all inclusive pricing and pricing each individual item. We had a choice of rivers to fish and all would have been the same price - - we could have waded the Madison instead of floating the Yellowstone. Obviously floating was much more expensive for the guide, he drove us to the site, had to pay to have his truck moved, etc. We could have floated for two days instead of wading for one. So that part of this was 'fixed price' and we know we payed higher for the ability to make last minute decisions. We were OK with that. But that very thing is what made paying a few bucks extra at the end for flies and tippet seem kind of nickel and dime.

Well it is good that you posted you experience on here so that those of us that do this very often, can help you to understand the kinds of questions to ask before you even book a trip and to possibly get references where needed. We work hard our money and don't really want to pay a high price for the learning curve when some only get one shot at this kind of thing every couple of years. I got lucky, sorta, when I first started going out west many years ago, my friend had made an aquaintance with an outfitter and then I met the guy that use through those trips, and through meeting that guide, you get to learn others that he respects or uses when he is overbooked etc. This is where you gain the knowledge, hands on experience, learn who to call for what etc. Can't put a price on that kind of stuff.

I prefer the "all included" pricing, but am certainly not offended by a guide asking reimbursement for flies used. But tippet? Good grief!

Maybe furled leaders should be more common practice, as they are more durable and cost effective! Always going to be people looking for more ways to make an extra buck.

Brandon

Man, if he'd have tried that one on me you'd had heard me laughing from the landing!!! And his tip.....................................

Then I'd have posted online. He'd be paintin' cabins by summers end. Done!!

I've had a couple guides on Mt. and the worked their arses off rowing on the MO. and they were tipped accordingly, as they should've been. But that boy.....NAH!

Jeremy.

Jeremy:

Please don't assume the guide is at fault. I suspect I know which shop the OP used, and their policies are a bit strange. The thing to remember is that it is the outfitter or shop that books the trip that sets the policies. Guides can't work for themselves in Montana; you have to be an outfitter, and to become an outfitter you need several hundred days working as a guide. Most guides here are independent contractors working for several outfitters/shops but who can't advertise their own services (I am a single-outfitter guide). Basically, most ICs are scrambling to get on an outfitter's call list. A guide who doesn't do what the outfitter tells him won't be getting any more calls. So it's sort of a rock and a hard place. You need the customer to be happy but also the outfitter or shop to be happy too. If the OP used the shop I'm thinking of, they operate as a booking agent for an outside outfitter rather than having their own outfitter's license, so virtually all their money comes from fly/terminal tackle sales, hence the nickel & diming.

Edit:
Reread the OP and maybe he went with an outfitter-guide rather than someone through a shop. If so, everything above no longer applies. Leaving it up for explanatory purposes.

The guide should be able to charge for whatever materials or services they want to charge for and should be able to charge whatever price they want. But, they should be upfront about it and not slide an extra bill in at the end of the trip.

That seems to be the issue with the OP, I'm guessing that if the guide had stated up front that there was a charge for flies and tippet then the OP would have been prepared for it or could have chosen not to make the trip.

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Originally Posted by Longs for Cutts

Jeremy:

Please don't assume the guide is at fault. I suspect I know which shop the OP used, and their policies are a bit strange. The thing to remember is that it is the outfitter or shop that books the trip that sets the policies. Guides can't work for themselves in Montana; you have to be an outfitter, and to become an outfitter you need several hundred days working as a guide. Most guides here are independent contractors working for several outfitters/shops but who can't advertise their own services (I am a single-outfitter guide). Basically, most ICs are scrambling to get on an outfitter's call list. A guide who doesn't do what the outfitter tells him won't be getting any more calls. So it's sort of a rock and a hard place. You need the customer to be happy but also the outfitter or shop to be happy too. If the OP used the shop I'm thinking of, they operate as a booking agent for an outside outfitter rather than having their own outfitter's license, so virtually all their money comes from fly/terminal tackle sales, hence the nickel & diming.

Edit:
Reread the OP and maybe he went with an outfitter-guide rather than someone through a shop. If so, everything above no longer applies. Leaving it up for explanatory purposes.

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Without going into too much detail, I think you are right. The guide we used was recommended by another guide my buddy knew and had previously used, but that was in Colorado. We confirmed dates with the guide but then he told us we needed to book through a fly shop that we later found out was an "outfitter" and that because this was in Montana the guide couldn't work on his own.

You said that the outfitter's only money comes from the sale of the terminal tackle and flies - don't they get a percentage of the guide fees?

If you want to know the name of the shop to confirm your suspicions, PM me and I will send it to you. I'd really rather not post it in public. We did have a very good time on the trip and in the whole scheme of things this part was very minor. I think we'd even use the shop again.

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

I believe that most accomplished anglers may occasionally use a guide as sort of "a way of renting a boat". There are certain rivers and sections of rivers that are best fished from a drift boat. This is especially true if you are on a fishing trip out West and don't have your own drift boat to get to those great fishing spots and/or cover miles and miles of good fishing waters.

As to the tip, the common price for 2 anglers on a full-day drift guided trip is 525. The average tipping percentage in the service industry (i.e., restaurants) is between 12% and 15%. At the accepted restaurant rate that would be approx. $80. But then, the wait staff doesn't spend much time with each customer and doesn't devote a full day to just two people............ And, they are using their equipment (boat, trailer, vehicle, etc.) and they are skilled - both in terms of fishing, reading the water, handling a boat, etc. They are licensed as well.

The guide spends all day with you. They work hard manipulating the drift boat in a heavy river to put you and your buddy in positions to hook some big fish. They often haul you and the boat a hundred miles or more (each way) in their vehicle; serve you and your buddy a shore lunch; etc., etc.

They deserve all they receive for the job they hold for maybe 4-5 months a year...........IMHO, that is.

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I can understand the "rent a boat" concept. I did that one time in Florida to take my son bass fishing. I'm not sure I agree with "accomplished anglers" though...

Also, if guides were concerned that they only hold "a job" for 4-5 months, they would be doing something else, like most of us.

I do have a difficult time understanding the hiring of a guide for a "walk/wade" trip on publicly accessible water.

The reason I said "accomplished anglers" is for that very reason - an accomplished angler would generally not hire a guide for a guided wading trip in public waters. They generally would not need a guide in that circumstance.

That is why I said ".....accomplished angles may occasionally use a guide a sort of 'a way of renting a boat'."
It is also why I said that reaching certain rivers and sections of rivers are best fished from a drift boat.
Some Western rivers do not lend themselves to wade fishing. There are some in which you can only access small stretches via wading.
In addition, many rivers in Montana have a large part of the river frontage privately owned. So, you cannot access those significant stretches of river. Given their public high water mark laws, one can fish those stretches from a boat as long as you don't get out on the banks..............and put the boat in, and take it out, at public access points placed for that purpose.

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Originally Posted by Longs for Cutts

Jeremy:

Please don't assume the guide is at fault. I suspect I know which shop the OP used, and their policies are a bit strange. The thing to remember is that it is the outfitter or shop that books the trip that sets the policies. Guides can't work for themselves in Montana; you have to be an outfitter, and to become an outfitter you need several hundred days working as a guide. Most guides here are independent contractors working for several outfitters/shops but who can't advertise their own services (I am a single-outfitter guide). Basically, most ICs are scrambling to get on an outfitter's call list. A guide who doesn't do what the outfitter tells him won't be getting any more calls. So it's sort of a rock and a hard place. You need the customer to be happy but also the outfitter or shop to be happy too. If the OP used the shop I'm thinking of, they operate as a booking agent for an outside outfitter rather than having their own outfitter's license, so virtually all their money comes from fly/terminal tackle sales, hence the nickel & diming.

Edit:
Reread the OP and maybe he went with an outfitter-guide rather than someone through a shop. If so, everything above no longer applies. Leaving it up for explanatory purposes.

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Longs...

Thank you for a well thought-out and informative answer. Much of what you included I was unaware of. The O.P.'s post just got my "Whaaaat??" button, bigtime.

Much appreciated,

Jeremy.