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Over the past week or so, I noticed that my bottle of Sally was starting to get a little thick. I dumped in a little Acetone and mixed it around a bit. Well, it turned cloudy. That was a couple days ago. I checked it a little bit a ago, and it had pretty much cleared up, until I noticed the mixture wasn't smooth. I shook it up a bit, and it turned cloudy again. It still works, but, it dries cloudy as well.
Did I kill it, or will it clear up?
If it is dead, at least it's cheap to replace.
Hi Allen,
I wrote a long reply, but it took long enough that I had to try to log back in, and somehow got kicked out of the system, so this is the short version.
Basically if your acetone has picked up water, when you add it to the polish, the acetone will dissolve in the polish and thin it, but the water will not dissolve and will instead form very tiny droplets which you will see as clouding.
Given some time, the droplets of water will clump together and grow large enough to fall to the bottom because the water is more dense than is the polish. When that has happened to the point that almost all of the free water has precipitated out the polish will again become clear.
However, when you shake it back up, the droplets again become suspended in the water, and it again appears cloudy. Also, the larger particles will cause the polish to no longer be smooth.
Don't know if you have any water in the acetone, but if do, then it can cause the sympoms you saw. If that is the cause, then the Sally Hansens is toast.
Regards,
Gandolf
$4.95 for the large bottle. I saw the small bottle on sale for $1.27...
If you used nail polish remover, it contain water.
I did the same thing with my wife's nail polish remover only to realize water was part of the ingredients
It's not Sally's but the Dollar Tree around here have polish, usually clear and colors for a buck a bottle.
I agree with Gandolf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandolf
If you used pure acetone, I think there is water in the acetone. I think your acetone is saturated with water and when mixed with the lacquer thinner in your head cement, the acetone mixes with the thinner and the result is that the acetone is no longer able to hold the water in a polar hydrogen bond.
Hydrogen bonds are weak. When one breaks, the free water molecule must either find another free water molecule or another acetone molecule to bind with. When there is a smaller % of acetone in the mixture, there is a greater chance the free water molecule will find another free water molecule to bind with and then you eventually get a water droplet that causes cloudiness. Basically the lacquer thinner in your original mixture is "driving out" the water in the acetone by creating a situation that allows water droplets to form in the head cement.
I would get rid of the acetone by pouring it into an old open paint can and placing it outside to allow it to vaporize off. Then mix any residual with sand and put it into the garbage.
I don't use pure acetone to thin my Sally Hansen's. I use lacquer thinner. Although acetone is a component of lacquer thinner, there are other nonpolar components like toluene, napthas, etc that make lacquer thinners less likely to absorb water. And even when some water is absorbed by the acetone, when you mix the acetone thinner into the head cement the % of acetone is not changed enough to allow "free" water molecules to coalesce.
Laquer thinner is also less volatile than pure acetone so you won't need to thin it as often. Finger nail polish is a lacquers so why not use a lacquer thinner?
I've purchased nail polish from Dollar General and it is extremely thick. Now I know how to thin it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse
I haven't had that problem with the stuff at Dollar Tree, they generally have some with glitter in it, which I like for bream and bass bugs. I like my bling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Mortis
I have been using polish for many many years, and I can tell you, there is a difference in the SHHAN and the $ stuff. The $ stuff will chip.
I have had the same problem trying to thin some, nice to know why.
Thank you Gandolf and Silver Creek. I haven't replaced it yet (forgot while at the store today), so tomorrow, it's going to get bought.
Hi Allen,
I use MEK to thin head cement instead of acetone or lacquer thinner, and think it works better than lacquer thinner. You can get it a some paint stores, lumber yards, and hardware stores. I bought mine at Ace Hardware.
Also, I use regular lacquer for head cement, and bought a pint probably 10 to 15 years ago. When the stuff in my old head cement bottle starts to get grungy because of bits of hair and feathers in it, I throw the old out and open the can of lacquer. That one pint will outlast me, I am quite sure.
Regards,
Gandolf
But head cement can't do this
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps41f0fe02.jpg
I seem to recall that MEK is more toxic to humans that acetone or lacquer thinner for identical exposures. Probably not a problem with the small amount that vaporizes with head cement use but I would not want to deal with an accidental MEK spill in the house. Probably best to fill the head cement bottle in the garage. In fact probably best to use the garage for all pouring of volatiles into the head cement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandolf
I'm aware of the dangers of MEK. Not to mention that I don't have a garage. I'll probably just stick with the lacquer thinner.
Hi All,
Fly Godess: Neat Fly! Thank you for the information that the SH holds up better than the cheap nail polish. The amount of head cement I use is such that I can afford to buy the Sally Hansens. They must have some sort of elastomer in the formula. You are right, I think it would take a long time to build up enough coating with ordinary head cement to equate to the fly you show above, and if you could it still wouldn't be the same.
Concerning the dangers of Acetone, Lacquer Thinner, and MEK, the acetone is the least dangerous, I am quite sure, but I haven't looked at the toxicity. Lacquer thinner used to contain toluene and methanol in plentious amounts I think. Neither of those is a bargain to breath.
They have changed the formulation of lacquer thinner, maybe two decades or so ago, to make it less hazardous. The price of that, of course, is that it isn't as good of a solvent as it used to be because the more toxic compounds also happen to have the best solvency properties. From personal experience I know it does not work as well as MEK. I keep gallon amounts of all three, and other solvents as well, in my garage.
I ought to switch to the acetone, perhaps because of the health concerns, but don't breath much in my fly tying anyway, and the amount of acetone I breath at work in a week, even though I try to be careful with it and work in a hood as much as possible, is probably more than I will breath in several years of fly tying.
I'm heading to the lumber yard in a bit, something about replacing the turbine vent on the 2nd floor of our house, which blew off last night, because there is a good chance of rain tonight. Sigh, there is no rest for the weary.... At any rate, I will look at the compostion of the Ace brand lacquer thinner to see what nasties are in it currently.
My point is that none of the thinners is risk free. Again, I am fairly certain that the acetone is probably the least toxic. Still, we need to be careful with all of them.
Regards,
Gandolf
Hi All,
I looked at Lacquer Thinner at the lumber yard, and it contained Acetone, ethyl acetate, methanol, petrolium distillates, and Toluene. Thus, the Lacquer Thinner is pretty bad for you, as there is in fact methanol and toluene in it.
There was no MEK for sale in small packages there, only a 5 gallon can, the only small containers present were of "MEK Substitute." I looked up the "MEK Substitute" MSDS on the Klean Strip site, and it is 100% ethyl acetate. Ethyl Acetate is one of the many solvents used in nail polish, and one of the many solvents used in nail polish remover.
I think ethyl acetate should work for nail polish solvent, but don't know at this point. I may buy a little bit to try.
I would guess that they don't carry small containers of MEK because of concerns about toxicity. That is the only reason that makes any sense to me.
If I try the "MEK Substitute" as a thinner for head cement (lacquer and also nail polish), I will let you know about how it works. The nice thing about it, is that it is available in the quart size, or so, containers. Small containers are handy to store and safer compared to the gallon sizes.
Regards,
Gandolf
I have not had a problem thinning SH with 100% pure acetone as you describe. Just a few drops every now and then with an eye dropper seems to work for me. I use the SH "clear" without any other additives.
aa
I also would like to suggest you never use fingernail polish remover to dilute SH. I use regular Lacquer Thinner from the hardware store.
A thinner for "rubbery" coatings like Softex or Dave's Flexament is Toluene from the same hardware store. It is rediculous to spend $2 or $3 for an ounce for either of these thinners when you can get a quart for about $9. :)
Most,
I really got a chuckle out of this thread. Many of us, yes I include myself, will and have spent hundreds (more like 000s) of $s on fly fishing equipment. Many of us tyers have spent $thousands$ on fly tying equipment, hooks and materials. Some perhaps even spent $100+ on a neck from which we use just a few feathers or just to have. But yet we try and save some pennies on an item like head cement @ less then $3 that will last a very long time. We really need therapists and this little 'hobby' of ours is really a sickness. Not saying that I regret or desire to get rid of my sickness. I just acknowledge that I have it, LOL.
Allan
True story Allan. I started using SHHAN over 40 years ago, but on my nails. I tried it on flies right out of the gate because I had no head cement. I loved the glossy look.
Any more, when it starts t get thick, it is half gone, so, I go buy another bottle. I poor about quarter of the new in the older. Shake it up and I know have a thin coating and one a little thicker to make nice heads.
Nothin' wrong with saving where one cans;)
You should have bought this stuff when it was still available. It never dry's out and an ounce bottle lasts a long, long time. The holy grail of head cements.
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps0361c2b8.jpg