P.S. Wisdom of the Guides

Didn't mean to start a new thread, but was called to task once for "hijacking" a thread when I was responding to something in a thread which was not precisely about the original post. So am trying to be careful.

Anyway, I found John Scott's reference, and example from the above book very interesting. I love the historical accounts of the circumstances surrounding the development of a new, popular pattern. I always wonder what triggered such a fly to be tied.

In the example cited by John, I'm sure Skues saw no need to explore an alternative to his Little Red Sedge, but Al Troth thought he would simplify it with a material he knew to be a good floater without the need for hackle.

Again, thanks John for the heads up. I intend to get that book.

Thanks,
Byron

*chuckle*

John, a question raised time and time again goes something like this: what is more important - presentation or pattern?

I have considered this a nonsensical question for at least three decades - for a number of reasons, but here is the main one.

They are sequential, not parallel. You first have to present the fly, any fly, to the fish within its feeding range, and in a non-threatening manner.

Only when/after this has been achieved the actual pattern selection kicks in as a variable.

The above text is a mere affirmation of this.

Thanks for sharing,
Hans W

Hey Byron, does that fly made from Troth's army socks bring back some memories of Bennett Spring. I can still remember the "army worm" as being one of the hot flies there and probably still is. That drab olive-brownish colored yarn seem to really attract the fish.

Dave

*chuckle*

Bruce and I go back a long way. I have very fond memories of time spent in Bruce/Carol's home, as well as time with them at various shows, and time on the water with Bruce. Very specifically I enjoyed the day he took me to fish Bechler Creek. His Dry Muddler did the damage that day :cool:

With apologies for the very crummy picture quality, here are some images from that day:

http://www.danica.com/flytier/temp/bechler1.jpg
Bechler Creek meadow stretch

http://www.danica.com/flytier/temp/bechler2.jpg
Bechler Creek cutbow

http://www.danica.com/flytier/temp/bechler4.jpg
Phew - Lowlander at end of hike back to Bechler Ranger Station

Cheers,
Hans W

The standard view of presentation is that it is the cast and drift. I understand that definition because it is most often used to emphasize the need for a drag free drift.

However, I think presentation includes more than that. I think it includes reading the water so that you dissect the differential currents that will "present" the fly. It includes deciding what location you need to wade to get the easiest cast and mends to make. It includes staying low and slow so you do not spook the fish. It includes keeping your false casts away from the fish. It includes the leader and tippet length you choose. I also believe it includes the fly choice; whether you think the fish is taking a dry on the surface, an emerging in the film, or an emerger under the film; and everything you do to present the fly at the level the fish. It also includes purposefully animating the fly if that is necessary to induce a strike. I think it even includes when you decide to fish because that decision affects that fly you will use and how you will present it. That is exactly what we do when we go out to fish an evening hatch or spinner fall.

Everything that we do that determines whether the fish takes or not is a part what I consider to be "presentation". I understand that I am in the minority as this article on "presentation" vs "imitation" demonstrates. However, when someone mentions presentation to me, my definition forces me to examine everything I have done and not only the cast and drift.

I am closest in agreement with Brant Oswald view in the article below.

http://midcurrent.com/experts/imitat...-presentation/

In its simplest terms, isn't what we are all trying to do is get the fish to take our fly instead of a natural insect?
So, we have to offer him a fly which looks like the insect he is feeding on, AND behaves as the insect he is feeding on.

Fly selection and presentation of the fly.

A poor fisherman can buy a perfectly tied Harrop pattern and catch nothing. A great fisherman can try to catch a selectively feeding fish on # 18 PMD's with a size 12 mahogany dun and also fail.........

If I had to rank the two - good representative fly v. Good presentation, it would be difficult, but would probably choose presentation. But, we don't have to make that choice. We can strive to do both.

The thing that favors the fly, however, is that a fisher's presentation isn't going to change in the short run. So, he should obviously control factors which are easy to control - fly selection being the most important until he can improve his presentation.

Great discussion guys!

Interesting John. The only furled leaders I have used are those mono ones I made myself. Any brand and supplier you would recommend for the thread furled leaders?
Thanks,
Byron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnScott

The easiest, fastest, and best way to immediately improve presentation is to go from standard tapered mono leaders to thread furled leaders.

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You are turning this into a memory lane trip today, John, at least for me :cool:

Here is Jim Cramer, building me my first thread furled leader in his Idaho Falls hotel room in August 1998 using his travel furling kit.

http://www.danica.com/flytier/us98/furling1.jpg
Setting up

http://www.danica.com/flytier/us98/furling2.jpg
Leader nearing completion

Cheers,
Hans W

Hans,
Have you been back since???
Let's rendezvous in mid June this summer?

Thanks so much John!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnScott

I don't recognize Jim Cramer either by name or from the pic.

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Jim Cramer was visiting from California, so not surprised. He is one of the pioneers who forged the trail in thread furled leaders. That trip was summer 1998
:cool:

Quote:

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If he was from the Idaho Falls area, it seems likely that he was acquainted with the fellow - Karl Amunson - who introduced me to furled leaders and taught me his approach to making them, in Idaho Falls in early '05.

---

Jim likely is not, but I am. I have not had contact with Karl for many years. Does he still have the ranch?? Lovely stretch of the Lemhi on the property.

http://www.danica.com/flytier/us_sum...hi/lemhi09.jpg
Karl getting a big hit on the Lemhi Orange. He dressed in kind for the occasion :cool:

You also mentioned Joni. Is she still performing?

Cheers,
Hans W

John,
One question I have is:
We "believe" that we need a somewhat stiff butt section of our leaders to get good turnover of the leader. What compensates for this in a supple furled leader?
Thanks,
Byron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

We "believe" that we need a somewhat stiff butt section of our leaders to get good turnover of the leader. What compensates for this in a supple furled leader?

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Byron,

That "belief" suggests that making a leader of springy wire would turn over even better...

It is not the stiff butt section of 'hard' mono which turns over the leader, it is leader mass. What you are typically looking for in a casting loop is a tight one, and for the leader it is no different. Thread furled leaders turn over beautifully, with a tight loop on account of their ultra supple nature.

A very good demonstration is to hand-cast just a mono (knotted or knotless) by hand, and then do the same with a thread furled leader. The first will be very frustrating, the latter a joy to see actual loop formation and a straight line delivery.

Cheers,
Hans W
who has been using thread furled leaders since summer 1998

Hans,
Believe it or not, I'm a pretty good caster with tight loops.
I was just curious about supple v the butt sections of most/all mono leaders "sold" as assisting in the "turnover" of the leader.
I am sure some might, but I have yet to see a guide using furled leaders.
As I said, I have made and fished mono twisted leaders. I found them not any better than a nice tapered leader like the Harrop leaders.

I am not closed to any idea, and yesterday, ordered two furled leaders from Quigley. He has a testimonial about furled leaders by Jim Cramer on his web site.

Please let me understand this....... When I was a bait fisher, you always caught more on a night crawler. than a worm. You always caught more on a tommycod than a shiner. They were no good in streams. At least I never had any luck with those situations. I prefer nymphing, LOVE IT !!, I have never caught a fish on a Grey Ghost in my LIFE. But I tie on a PT and BAM !! Fish do not walk on the moon

I must be missing something here.