YouTube video showing carp fishing with TenkaraUSA Amago and Daiwa 53MF. The Tenkara Guides in Salt Lake City show how it's done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX4s3...ature=youtu.be
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YouTube video showing carp fishing with TenkaraUSA Amago and Daiwa 53MF. The Tenkara Guides in Salt Lake City show how it's done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX4s3...ature=youtu.be
I guess I will have to take a gander on some Carp! We have some really good Carp fishing here in Idaho, and not to far me either.
Tight line,
Brandon
I was really surprised to note that the Daiwa rod being used at the end was 63 decimeters long. That is almost 21 feet. I have not yet seen that in your lineup, Chris. It sounded as if he (Erik?) said that it was a Kiyose, but I may have misunderstood that.
It is 53 decimeters. It is a Daiwa Kiyose 53MF which is a zoom rod that can be fished at 4.8m (15.75') or 5.3m (17.25') and is the next longer length to the Daiwa 43MF I just listed this week. Erik was looking for a big water / big fish rod to use in the Green River One Fly competition and I was looking for someone who regularly catches bigger fish than I do to put the rod through it's paces and see what it can handle. He didn't hook any monster trout so he took it carp fishing. It seems to handle carp just fine.
It isn't on the website yet because I had just gotten in a very few rods for evaluation. Erik has one, I have one and one is doing a little surf casting in Equador. The video coming out now does kind of catch me flat footed. I do plan on stocking the rod, though. From the very first introduction of tenkara into the US, there have been requests for rods that could handle bigger fish. About that time, there was a video from Shimano making the rounds that showed a guy in Alaska or Canada catching steelhead with a rod that looked a lot like a tenkara rod on steroids. TenkaraUSA and I were quick to say, no no, that's not tenkara, but the desire to catch bigger fish than a tenkara rod can handle didn't go away.
Since I've come to realize that whether a fishing style is or isn't tenkara (pure tenkara) is of no particular importance if it is fun, I've started handling requests for big fish rods differently. (It is important if you are trying to preserve purity or protect market share. It is not important if you just want to go fishing.) Most of the very long and very strong Japanese rods are horrendously expensive, but the Kiyose MF series is pretty reasonably priced - within reach of someone who wants to give carp fishing a try - and certainly much less expensive than it would be to buy a new 8 or 9 weight fly rod, reel, and line. There is a 63MF in the series, which is almost 21 feet long at full extension, but I wanted to try the 53MF first and go to the longer rod only if the limits of the 53 aren't sufficient to handle the fish people want to catch. Pushing envelopes is a step by step process.
It is tenkara fishing but it isn't a tenkara rod. It is a keiryu rod but it isn't keiryu fishing. I think I'll call it "fishing." I suspect any day now the people who want to preserve the purity of keiryu fishing will complain that I am bastardizing their sport.
You can always tell the pioneers. They're the ones with the arrows in their backs.
I wonder how that extra length and strength of the 43 & the 53 affect the size tippet one can safely use. 4X? 3X? Or might those rods risk the same tip-sticking problems that a Soyokaze might have with strong leaders?
You can always tell the pioneers. They're the ones with the arrows in their backs.
They are also the ones who own the land nearest to the river.
I believe there are three risks from having too strong a tippet. Getting the tip section completely stuck is certainly one, another is having the lillian pulled off. The most serious would be having the rod itself break from trying to stop a fish that is too strong for the rod but not too strong for the tippet.
Most of the rod breakages I've heard of are not from too strong a tippet, although I don't know how many stuck tips might be. I routinely break off 5X (4.7# test) tippet by pulling back on my rods (with the entire rod in a straight line with the line and tippet) when my fly is snagged and I can't reach the line to pull back on it directly. That is on a rod where the "recommended" tippet breaking strength is between .8 and 2.4# test. I've never gotten the tip on one of those rods stuck.
The tippet Erik was using to catch the carp was 4X. I think you'd be safe with that on the 43MF or 53MF, but I would hesitate to recommend 3X. I'm also not sure you'd need 3X, but then again I don't know. New ground is being broken and there isn't much accumulated wisdom yet with respect to what you can get away with.
Thanks, Chris. A helpful response, as always. ~pfa
Chris, now my curiosities have been picked. Do you think the 53MF will have enough backbone to land steelhead and salmon. Or even smaller stripped bass or wipers? It is not that often I fish for these but have on occasions. I do know they are using 6lb test mono here in the creeks for the steelies but that is on spinning gear with a drag system. I have looked at these rods before but was not sure of the weight of these. I am sure that the more backbone a rod has the heavier it might be.
I have never caught a steelhead, so I have no experience to draw on. I had an email exchange with an angler earlier this evening who said he has had steelhead break off when he was using 1X and 0X tippet with his 8 wt fly rod. I do not think the rod would be strong enough to stand up to force that would break 0X. (I do know of a somewhat similar rod that is rated for 12# test tippet, but it is a more expensive rod).
The Kiyose 53MF weighs 4.2 ounces without the tip cap (4.5 ounces with it).
I am confident that the rod could stand up to smaller stripers and wipers. The fish shown here was caught with a Kiyose 36SF, which is a less capable rod than the 43MF. I think it qualifies as "smaller."
Attachment 11054
Thanks again Chris. I guess I will have to stick with the 8wt and the switch rod then for the steelies. I may have to get me one of the 53MF's when you get them in stock to sell.
Chris,
Have you tried a hera rod for catching bigger fish using tenkara style techniques? I have a inexpensive one I bought from allfishingbuy.com that would seem to fill the bill. Although it won't cast a fly using just tenkara line all I have to do to get it to work is add a strike indicator and I'm in business. Allfishingbuy has some Daiwa hera and koi rods that look interesting.
John here, the other Tenkara Guide in the video using an Amago. I was using 3.5 level line and 5X tippet. Properly executed fighting and landing techniques allow you to bring these hard pulling fish to the net. It is all about technique and not trying to over power the fish. My largest fish of the day was easily 6-6.5 pounds and 21 inches. It would have been a much easier fish to land with the Diawa Kiyose and 4X because you can put more leverage on the fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by CM_Stewart
Note: I only lost one fish to broken tippet because I just simply tried to muscle the fish around. It was an experiment to see just how much pressure the Amago could put on the carp. It was not nearly as much control or power as the Kiyose. Erik had the advantage for fishing from the bank because of the amount of power the Diawa could put out. I was pretty much relegated to wading in some very smelly nasty water so I could walk my fish around to effectively fight them. If you watch our video closely in the first min or so you can clearly see me "walking my carp" to protect the tippet.
John
Tenkara Guides LLC
There was really only one part of the video I did not like. I also do not like to see anyone do it. The part is when fighting a fish, you use your free hand and touch the rod above the handle to try and help fight the fish. With tenkara it may not be much of a problem but any other gear it can spell disaster. When you do this you actually change the fulcrum point which in turn could cause your rod to break. You never want to grab a rod above the handle or where the end of the handle would be. Just wanted to give a warning to all that did not know this.
We don't "grab" the rod with the free hand. The grip is open, very light pressure of the fingers is used to control the direction of the tip of the rod. It may be hard to tell in the video, but the fingers are used by just lightly touching the rod with the fingers left open/loose (not clenched down on the rod). I learned this technique directly from Dr. Ishigaki as the proper method to control hard fighting fish. He cautioned me that this is a very advanced tenkara technique. After spending a week fishing with Eiji Yamakawa, Kyoshi Ishimura, Masami Tanaka, Dr. Hisao Ishigaki, Daniel Galhardo, and Masaki Nakano, I witnessed all of these tenkara anglers use this technique. Must be something to it or they wouldn't do it. That group of tenkara masters and anglers have pretty close to 130 years of combined tenkara experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpion1971
That being said, I have had clients on guide trips break tenkara rods by hard gripping the rod with both hands. My 6 year old son broke his 11' Iwana on a 20 inch rainbow trout by reaching up and grabbing the rod above the grip with his free hand. He did however, dive on the broken rod sections being dragged off by the fish and continue to fight until the tippet broke off.
Just use caution if you find yourself in the situation where you need to use the other hand to help control the tip of the rod. Again, it is a very light touch not used to muscle the fish but to keep the tip of the rod in control. Also the rod Erik is using is 17' long. You need 2 hands to keep that much leverage under control and it takes 2 hands just to cast that rod.
Attachment 11055 Masaki Nakano 3rd generation tenkara angler in his family. 20+ years of tenkara experience.
I did see that it was just the fingers. Even this can be enough to change the fulcrum point and break the rod. I have built a couple rods and have done quite a bit of reading of building and this is one thing all builders warn people of. Just because the so called masters do this does not mean you will not break a rod. I am not saying you will break a rod if you do this but you do increase the chance of a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV
I have seen and wiggled one of the hera rods but I have not fished with one. It seemed surprisingly stiff and I am not surprised that yours wouldn't cast a fly with a light tenkara line. Daiwa and Nissin both make poles (not quite the same as what I think of as "hera" rods with their teardrop grip) that are designed for carp - although relying on Google for translations is questionable. I wanted to try the Kiyose 53MF and maybe even the longer 63MF first because I think they will work and they both collapse to a convenient 21" length. The poles intended for carp only collapse to about 48" but I may have to get one in just to see what it is like. I had looked at the Daiwa "Liberty Club" but chose the Kiyose because it is much lighter weight and also has the added feature of the zoom capability.
I have had to use two hands before with larger fish on tenkara rods, but had both hands on the grip section rather than one on the gip and one higher up. I am sure that John is right about needing two hands to fight a carp with the 53MF Erik was using, although it might be safer to have both hands on the grip section rather than one on it and one on the next section up.