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To me one of the attributes I like in a rod is lightness.
I may be wrong but it seems to me that most custom rod blanks don't match the high end factory rods when it comes to lightness.
So to get a really light custom rod does a factory rod blank from say Sage [or other rod manufacturer] have to be used?
In most cases the higher end blanks are generally the lighter ones and also the most fragile due to the decreased wall thickness of the materials used.
What Ron said.
I think weight is over rated. First, almost nobody will stand in the stream and cast for several hours at a stretch. You have to pee. You have to land fish. You have to release them. You stop for lunch. If an ounce is going to ruin your day fishing, you are a weak son indeed! The differences are so minimal that it my opinion that most of the hype over weight is in a person't head, not so much in the arm.
Balance the rod so the grip is the center of gravity or pivot point for the rod with reel mounted and full of line and it will be much smoother to use and less work.
If weight was the end all, nobody would ever fish a bamboo rod over even the least expensive graphite blank.
I agree with Kevin in that balance is the important factor and not weight. I had a rod I really liked and then all of a sudden there was something about it that made my fishing uncomfortable. What I discovered is that I had changed reels on it and it was not balanced in the hand and made fishing it terrible. The components used to build a rod will also affect the weight and balance of any rod (my opinion).
With all reel manufacturing companies making their reels lighter and lighter, I wonder if eventually, they will no longer balance a rod.
My opinion is that balance is very important to any fly fishing rod combo instead of rod weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenP
It is almost impossible to achieve a true balance on a rod without factoring in a whole lot of variables. Reel size and weight,uplocking,downlocking, line weight, at what point do you want it to balance, 10' of line out, 20,30,50, it all changes the geometry involved.
The point is to get it close. A big old heavy reel may overbalance things while a supe light one my not be enough. Again, we are talking tenths of an ounce differences for most blanks and what line is out which should be negligible to the "feel" of the rod. There is wiggle room in the variables and equations.
One of my customers loves the rods I have built him on American Tackle Matrix blanks and fishes them much more than any of the Sage or Winston rods he has. The Sage and Winstons are certainly lighter but the Matrix rods are "more fun". He has the skills to handle a super fast rod but has "more fun" with the medium fast action Matrix.
Goduster,
I follow what you are saying and agree 100%. I do not know if I can explain what I am saying or not, but, it has more to do with the "feel" than the "balance" of the combo. If you have a reel that is too light, the tip of the rod will "feel" heavy and you will be constantly holding it up and the more line you have out, the heavier the tip will be. This becomes a stain on your wrist and forearm after awhile. If you have too heavy of a reel on, you will be holding the tip down until you have enough line out to overpower the light tip. The rod I really liked when I first used it just felt great. It was like I had no rod in my hand and was just casting the line. I really did not feel any rod weight and thought the rod was the lightest rod I had ever owned. Without giving any thought to the reel weight, I changed out the reel to a large arbor reel and begin to notice how heavy the rod felt. I changed back to the original reel and the rod "lost it's heavy feeling" and was a joy to fish with again.
Hopefully, some of this makes sense....
Actually Warren, what you do say does make sense and I understand completely. I do try and acheive an acceptable balance point on most of the builds I do if the client even has a clue as to which reel they will be using. I can vary the weight with the components I use from whether it be natural cork or burl style, the particular seat I use and the insert I turn for it. Also can adjust cork forward weight with the style and model of guides I use.
So, how do you test the balance of the rod without having a handle on it? Is there a sequence you go through with dry-mounting the grip? That would be the single most "balance affecting" component, wouldn't it? Do you set the blank on a fulcrum to determine the balance point? I built an AmTak rx7 that seems very light, but just doesn't seem right. Guess I should try some different reels.
It certainly has a lot to do with the materials used in the grip and reel seat as well as the reel. Most of the grips and seats I make will need a lighter reel to balance properly with as I like to use exotic woods for trim and such. Some of those woods are quite heavy so a light CNC machined reel will not only look sharp but balance well. A light cork grip without the accents will balance better with a large arbor or heavier reel.
Balance is essential. Unfortunately so many rods these days are uplocking which shifts your balance point into the rod blank instead of within the cork area. That's whyI prefer downlocking reel seats and have a number of reels that gives me options
For me its all about balance. I once built a 9' 9wt glass rod and over did the guides (3 strippers, one extra guide and all over sized). The rod was beautiful but was the worst rod I ever cast. I couldn't understand it until a "Old Timer" came over and showed me the outfit was "Top Heavy". He then proceeded to show me how I could add weights to the center of my Pflueger reel to balance the outfit.
He showed me how I should be able to balance the outfit on my index finger and be able to turn my hand and have the rod positioned ready to cast. The fulcrum was pretty much on the handle at my index finger when holding the rod. He stated that the larger bamboo rods, especially the cheaper ones were top heavy and had to be balanced this way back in the day (By adding weight to the reel). At one time he had been President & CEO of the Montague Rod Company so I listened. I added the weights and sure enough the rod cast fine, but BOY WAS IT HEAVY!!!!
So I completely stripped the rod down and re-built it with fewer and lighter guides, with them positioned so the rod and reel balanced as specified by my friend. Sure enough after the rebuild that rod was one of my favorites. It cast like a dream.
A light rod is a joy, a balanced rod is essential. If you watch baitcasters, most hold their rods by the reel because that's where the balanace point on the rig is located. The has resulted in the shape of the reels changing to a better ergonomic design. I have never observed myself or any other fisherman but I think lots ,if not most of us, move our hand back or forward as the balance point changes slightly with the amount of line we have out when fishing. 30 yards of 5 wt. line only weighs 0.32 ozs. plus whatever we tie onto the end of the leader, you don't have to be Hercules to handle that.
To the original question, a custom rod can be light if the builder strives for it. I've seen Orvis blanks built up to be lighter than their factory counter parts by using thin coatings, and cork reel seats with light weight bands.
I'd venture that most custom builds are heavier than their factory counter parts - using a slightly bigger handle, building a rod with "burl", "exotic" or other composite corks, adding feather inlays, using nickle silver rather than aluminum, and doing long signature wraps will all bump up the weight. I'm not saying that these techniques and components make a bad rod, not in the slightest, but they're things you want to stay away from if you're primary focus is grams.
The key is to discuss with your builder what you want. If you ask them to keep it light they should very well be able to.
This is all very true. I would venture to say that almost all of my customs are heavier than the factory counterpart. I can shave a bit by using single foot guides, minimalist guide wraps, graphite reel seat, and other weight saving components but most folks don't like how these look.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdPass
If minimal weight is what you want, you will have to say so. Many custom builders have their "hook" that gets you to pay attention to their rod and hopefully ache to own one. For me, it is the military ribbon wraps and my grips. I know I have a buyer hooked when he/she gently takes a rod in hand and fondles the grip or when a Vet's eyes get a bit moist seeing his decorations on his rod. An emotional relationship has just been forged with the rod that a few grams can't break.
Discussions on weight produce interesting discussion but it is still my opinion that when looked at in a logical manner a person should be more concerned with balance as the weight differences even between an IM6 blank and a Sage One blank are minuscule. The first can be made to feel divine in hand with proper balance and that Sage One can feel like a club if not balanced well.