Point Up or Down

I was just watching the video of a guy tying a 56er, using a number 10 4 x streamer hook with a down eye. He put on 10 - 12 wraps of lead wire on the hook shank, then added a duck feather tail, yarn body and hackle. He explained it was to imitate a immature crawfish. My question is will the hook point ride down or up. If that is not enough weight for pull the shank down and the point up. How much is needed.

My second question is "Why does no one put a snag guard on a trout fly? A couple of strand of 8 - 10 mono should do the job.

I wait the wisdom of the membership.:?

If the weight is wrapped around the hook, how will it make it ride hook up? I mean I know dumbbells do, but that is all the weight on one side of the hook.

Maybe no weed guards on Trout flies because the size of their mouths. They just inhale the fly. Bass however can inhale a volkswagon...LOL

Great subject Jess

Mayor weight sinks first. If the shank (in this case with lead) is heavier than the entire curve, the shank goes first to the bottom, turning the hook up. A hook without weight sinks with the curve below for that reason. Something very interesting here (I had thousands of discussions about it), when you add lead wraps -for ex.- tying nymphs, many times the fly will be riding on the bottom point up. So if you tie a beautiful nymph with a clear belly, dark back (as usual), will be not working as a natural. We are very lucky with this things, cause fish are mostly starving and they don't care. And are "political" discussions.

really. I have got to try that in a glas cause the flies I have seen with weight wrapped around them still float hook down, then just dive eye first or if the weight is back the the bend, butt first, but never noticed them riding hook up. I got to try this.

Without experimenting...it would seem the lead, being more dense, would cause the fly to SINK shank first...hook up. But once the fly is no longer sinking (trolling, or sitting on the bottom), then the weight of the hook point would cause the fly to roll over and be hook down. Maybe?

It's really a simple matter of physics, but I sold my text book in 1966. We wrapped lead around the shank which is more dense than water and cover it with dubbing, etc., which is less dense than water and will offset the lead to some extent. I may tye some 56er's and add some black bead chain eyes above the bend of the hook and a little more lead wire on the shank.

I remember Leroy Hyatt saying that Charles Brooks designed some of his flies, specifically a stone fly nymph, in the round to give the impression it was right side up as it tumbled down the stream

So the Uncle Jesse Touch would be to tie on TWO pairs of beadchain eyes at 90 degree angles to each other?
That sounds kind of interesting. Darn, now I'm thinking about actually trying it.

Ed

On most DOWN EYE hooks, a lot of lead on the shank will generally cause them to ride hook point up IF you tie your line to the hook eye (some folks may still be using a turle (sp?) knot).

But:

Don't forget to add in the drag factor....

Wings and such ABOVE the shank will tend to make the fly fall with the point down, mostly. Most 'classic' streamer flies and bucktails ride properly in the water because of this, rather than the weight of the hook bend. You can overcome this with enough weight.

If you WANT the fly to ride hook point up, which is a good idea for flies that will be used near the bottom of the water column, you can try stacking the lead wire instead of wrapping it. Wrap down two lengths of lead wire along the top of the shank, then stack a third on top of these.. should flip just about any fly.

Of course you can use lead eyes, or heavy bead chain if the patern will allow it.

Good Luck!

Buddy

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Originally Posted by EdD

So the Uncle Jesse Touch would be to tie on TWO pairs of beadchain eyes at 90 degree angles to each other?
That sounds kind of interesting. Darn, now I'm thinking about actually trying it. Ed

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Actually, I have some of that big ole bathroom stopper size chain that takes a hook down really good. Like Buddy said point up is a good idea near the bottom of the stream. I will probably be using a sink tip this year more than ever. After I started restocking by arsenal from last years sacrifice to Neptune or who ever inhabits freshwater depths, I came up with a 9 ft. stick that slings my 6 wt. sink tip the best of anything I have tried yet.

Here's how I weight my USD Squirrel Bugger to get it to ride usd.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...relBuggerB.jpg

Then it rides like this:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...relBuggerC.jpg

That is what I am talking about Dumbbell eyes on one side. I just don't see how wrapping a hook with weighted wire can make it float hook up. That is where I need to experiment. So far, wrapping the hook just determins it sinkingbutt, level or eye first depending on where it is placed/

Anyone remember the keel hook?

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...0/25060805.JPG

There is no need for dumbbell eyes. Just weight the "keel" of the hook with lead wire and the hook will ride point up if you tie materials around the hook.

The second factor is the positioning of the materials on the hook. If you tie your streamer materials to the front of the hook, just behind the eye, even without lead, the hook will ride point up. The materials act like a parachute and the fly will sink keel side down because the streamer materials like marabou and flash fibers sink slower. The bare metal is denser and so sinks faster and will be the low point of the fly.

One potential problem with the keel hooks and tying materials only on the front of the hook is that the material extending beyond the hook point can twist around and foul the hook point if the length is wrong. They need to extend far enough beyond the hook point or be stiff enough like buck tail so they can't twist themselves around the hook.

Even when retrieved, the fly comes back keel side down. The pull from line is on the eye of the hook which is above the keel. The fly gets pulled up with the keel side down and when paused, the fly again sinks keel side down.

I did not have to put lead a lead dumbbell on my fly to get it to ride point up. I put the dumbbell on the fly to give it eyes and to forward weight the fly to give it a jigging action on the retrieve. Unfortunately, the keel of my USD Squirrel Bugger is so heavily weighted that the fly jigs very little. It tilts very little on the pause.

Keel hooks are hard to find or not at all available so I bend hooks. The lower hook is the original and the top hook is bent so the front shaft of the hook is parallel to the point and between the keel and point of the hook. The requires two bends, one to accentuate the keel by bending the shaft down and then a second bend closer to the eye to bend the shaft parallel to the point.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...relBuggerA.jpg

Interesting. Mine either spin or hook down without the weight dictating which. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

That is what I am talking about Dumbbell eyes on one side. I just don't see how wrapping a hook with weighted wire can make it float hook up. That is where I need to experiment. So far, wrapping the hook just determins it sinkingbutt, level or eye first depending on where it is placed/

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If the bend is the heaviest part of the hook, putting anything, anywhere, on the shank would work as a counter effect, no?

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Originally Posted by Silver Creek

Here's how I weight my USD Squirrel Bugger to get it to ride usd.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...relBuggerB.jpg

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Have you tied this without the lead wraps on the shank?

I was under the impression that a hook would actually ride "shank up" even with dumbbell eyes, if the eyes were set below the hook shank. One of the reasons why John Gierach touted, in Good Flies, a specific Daiichi hook model (1180?) for his damsel nymphs.

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Originally Posted by Steven

If the bend is the heaviest part of the hook, putting anything, anywhere, on the shank would work as a counter effect, no?

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You would think so. I don't know. Now Jig hooks I would think float hook up on the strip because of the eye placement.

Generally speaking, the whole hook up/hook down thing is why I don't weight my nymphs except for specific patterns that call for a beadhead such as a copper john or those that are tied in the round like the pink squirrel.

I have been targeting Carp and Bass lately (yea I knw, I said the C word) and I like the hook up clouser style ties.

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Originally Posted by Steven

Have you tied this without the lead wraps on the shank?

I was under the impression that a hook would actually ride "shank up" even with dumbbell eyes, if the eyes were set below the hook shank. One of the reasons why John Gierach touted, in Good Flies, a specific Daiichi hook model (1180?) for his damsel nymphs.

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Steven,

I have not.

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

I have been targeting Carp and Bass lately (yea I knw, I said the C word) and I like the hook up clouser style ties.

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I love carp. I went to a lodge on the Bighorn years ago. When I told the guide I wanted to spend some time on Yellowtail Reservoir targetting carp on the surface with hoppers, he gave a big smile and said "Damn, I got a client that can fish!"

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Originally Posted by Silver Creek

Steven,

I have not.

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Re-reading...what I should have said if the dumbbell eyes are below the hook eye....even if the dumbbell eyes are tied on top of the shank.

RIGHT ON! It's like we're connected;) Serious fun there.

Steven,

Now I am really confused. Please forgive me if I misinterpreted what you wrote.

A portion of the eye of the dumbbell may project over to the other side of the hook shank on which it is tied, BUT that does not mean the center of mass or center of gravity of that dumbbell eye lies on the other side of the hook shank.

My thought is that whether the added weight is lead wire, or dumbbell eyes, the placement affects the center of gravity/mass of the fly. Dumbbell eyes move the center of gravity forward because they are generally placed forward on the hook behind the hook eye. That was what I was trying to do so that my fly would jig up and down, However, I had so much lead further back on the shank of the hook, the eye could not move the center of mass forward enough for the fly to jig up and down.

Bear with me for the following explanation of how I think dumbbell eyes affect the center of mass of the fly.

The center of mass/gravity of the dumbbell eye itself should be in the midpoint of the central shaft of the eye. Whether the eye is tied above the shank of the hook or below, does shift the center mass of the eye 1/2 diameter of the dumbbell eye shaft (and not the diameter of the eye) above or below the hook shank. Therefore the difference in these two locations is the diameter of the dumbbell shaft plus the dimeter of the hook shank.

This does shift the the center of mass/gravity of the fly a bit up or down but I think how the point rides also depends on how the hook is shaped and how the rest of the fly is weighted. The eye itself (because the center of mass is at the center of the shaft), even when tied above the hook shank may not be enough to flip the fly upside down so that it rides hook point up reliably.

My physics is nowhere near up to snuff. I'd have to ask my daughter!

But maybe I didn't make myself clear. Gierach found, and Daiichi confirmed, that eyes tied on top of the shank on a certain kind of hook, did not make the hook ride point up. The hook, I now think it was the Daiichi 1870, is bent in such a manner in the shank, that the dumbbell, although on top of the shank, was below the hook eye.

All this worry about point up or down was brought up elsewhere, I'll paraphrase the answer for more delicate eyes.

"Yeah, sucks, doesn't it?

Not really see, we're imitating bugs, all up side down, screaming "help I'm in trouble, and a very easy to eat food item.""

Cheers,
A.