Please help me become a legend in my own mind.

The title is facetious. I have resisted for quite a while commenting on the Fly Tying section re. the change from a discussion of how to tie a fly or find a material to the dominant theme (IMHO) of 'Look at my wonderful fly'. Maybe I am whining, but I can't bite my tongue any longer.

Another site (now almost defunct) suffered the same fate just before the end. Personally, I am the Past President of a fishing club and have tied about 5,00 flies, so I know a few things about fly tying (not bragging, just saying). My list of 'must-have' flies contains 70 patterns. Like everyone else who ties I have 'invented' a few, and most of the patterns I tie have some modification from the original. However (and I guess this is the issue) they are MY attempts, and maybe I share them with my club friends for discussion, but I am not motivated to post them on the BB to say, "Look at ME".

Different strokes for different folks I know, and I don't have to open threads that I don't want to etc., but I just need to say that the free access to public (internet) recognition fatigues me when I see normal patterns being lauded because of web exposure, and some tier's self-importance.

PS. I didn't post this 'old codger' complaint on the Fly Tying board because I didn't want to upset anyone or confuse that board by looking like sour grapes.

Your views?

Greg,

If you read through Donald Nicolson's thread, you'll find that a lot of FAOLer's are in agreement with you. Showing a picture of a fly you tied, along with the recipe and any fishing hints is a wonderful help to those starting out, have never tied or fished the fly before, or are just on a search for knowledge. Being a very talented tier, caster, water reader does nothing to help others along unless you pass on the information and techniques.

Post up some pics of your flies anytime and they'll be taken as what they are, an attempt to help everyone else out.

Just MHO of course.

REE

greg
post away we love seeing flies others make up and ;learning if their good in our own waters. we are a family here trust me your not hijacking your contributing.

Greg,
Please post! I would love to see them and try my hand at tying them. How else am I going to learn?

Greg,

I get it. It seems at times that the fly tying board is being used for a show with little tell type board, as most 'discussion' of a posted fly picture is more along of the lines of adulation than discussion.

I also try to refrain from posting fly pictures unless it's in answer to a question or an attempt to give someone ideas on some particular genre. I'll sometimes start a thread to 'show off' a certain fly if I believe the technique is unique or particularly worthy of discussion.

But I must admit that I do like to see the efforts of others. It can give me ideas on new techniques and suggest new tweakings to existing flies. Once in a while I see something truly unique (seldom a fly itself, most normally a technique or material), which I'll happily incorporate into my tying repretoire.

I wonder how many of the experienced tyers here have to fight the urge to offer 'constructive' critism on some of the flies that are posted. It's a fine line between telling someone their fly is awful and giving them the information to make it better. I've given up the effort entirely since I have a tendency to pomposity anyway, and I don't want to encourage it.

I must admit I have seen enough 'soft hackle' flies posted here to last my entire lifetime.......;)

Buddy

Um....I'm guilty as charged, to a certain degree.

I post pictures of things I tie for the same reason I look through the other peoples' posts in the Fly Tying section...to share and to learn. I know mine are far from perfect, so the point certainly isn't to "show off my skills", most people here are much better tyers than I. But sharing ideas is the main reason. They don't have to be original ideas. Each of us may see something interesting on another site, or in a book or magazine. Why not share it? Many times others post a picture of something they tied, and I may either like the entire fly, or at least a certain aspect of it that might be useful in some other pattern. It will spur me to tie something I may not have tied before, or haven't tied in some time. I get to see what is working for others.

So...I post often. Probably too much. Some folks may get something from it. Many may not. Nobody is forced to click on my posts. :)
Share or don't. Your choice and mine.

I like looking at the flies posted. I have posted a few, mainly asking for feedback. Its a learning process for me, some of the more experienced tyers may be bored by the posts, but not me. I say post away!

Hi Greg,
If you want to see a website in decline, a good way to accomplish that goal would be to start chasing away enthusiastic contributors by admonishing them for sharing their passion.

I think that you are confusing enthusiasm with ego.
For instance, why do you feel the need to share your fly fishing resume with us to make a point about the enthusiastic pursuits of other tyers?
Why not simply say what you have to say and let it stand on it's own merits. Possibly because you hold your own tying talents in high regard. As these other tyers do of their work.

I relish the enthusiasm that these other tyers wish to share and look forward to their contributions, whether they live up to your high standards or not.

It wasn't but a month or so ago that another well versed angler who has contributed much to this board had his head not so politely handed to him publicly for answering a question at great length and in detail.

The gist of it was that he'd gone into to great of detail for an answer directed to a novice. It seems strange that anyone would be admonished for going the extra mile, as it does when someone interrupts the flow of a thread by trying to disallow the reader to judge for themselves the validity of the posted contribution.
That too started with the admonisher, posting their fly fishing resume to I suppose, add some credibility to their argument. The pendulum here does swing both ways.

How about this? We simply let folks share what they will and let each reader decide for themselves whether or not the contribution carries any worth.

Best, Dave

Hiya Greg ... Post 'em... pictures, I mean. If you want to. I like to see flies others have tied, and agree with the others on that.
If there's something new, I start using the idea in my own flies. I been tying a long time, and usually make some kinda change in
most every fly, rather than go out and get some specific material. I usually have something that will work in it's place, or at least does for me. I like to know what others used if it's something new, or that I haven't seen, but it's no trouble here to ask the poster about it.......

Oh, and by the way... If you need help becoming a legend in your own mind,,,,you're doing it wrong :) :) ....Modoc Dan

Definitely post pics...just make sure you include a 1000 word report here, or you'll be seen as a classless showboater and consequently crucified. ;)

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Originally Posted by FishnDave

Um....I'm guilty as charged, to a certain degree.

I post pictures of things I tie for the same reason I look through the other peoples' posts in the Fly Tying section...to share and to learn. I know mine are far from perfect, so the point certainly isn't to "show off my skills", most people here are much better tyers than I. But sharing ideas is the main reason. They don't have to be original ideas. Each of us may see something interesting on another site, or in a book or magazine. Why not share it? Many times others post a picture of something they tied, and I may either like the entire fly, or at least a certain aspect of it that might be useful in some other pattern. It will spur me to tie something I may not have tied before, or haven't tied in some time. I get to see what is working for others.

So...I post often. Probably too much. Some folks may get something from it. Many may not. Nobody is forced to click on my posts. :)
Share or don't. Your choice and mine.

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No Sir you are not guilty of anything. I want to see a picture along with the recipe. A visual reference is a must for me and if it wasn't that way for most of us then our books, magazines, web sites wouldn't have pictures in them either. Like you I realize all of us have our own style unique to us alone. I love seeing the individual nuance each person brings to the fly.

Buddy, respectfully if you see a fly that is tied in a manner that you think is wrong or you know a different way to ty it that brings better results then you need to rethink what you are doing. If there is one thing I have learned from FAOL and other fly fishers it is that constructive criticism is not bad at all. It is how we fly fishers learn to do things better. Anyone that posts a picture of fly and doesn't expect it to be critiqued should not be posting it. There is nothing wrong with telling a person what we think is wrong with their fly so long as we:

1 Keep in mind that we ourselves are not the perfect tyer

2 We criticize in a tactful, respectful manner. No personal attacks. Anyone who can't stand to have their flies critiqued won't be posting here for long.

3 Keep in mind that the fish, not us, are the ultimate critics of how good a job the tyer is doing. If they are catching fish with a fly that looks ugly to you then perhaps it is you who needs to alter your tying style.

I know my flies are not that good and I want my fellow fly fishers to suggest different ways to change them. I post them because the fish seem to like what I am doing and that shows that a fly does not have to be picture perfect like the ones we see in publications. I would hope that would encourage the tyer like me that struggles at the tying bench to keep on trying.

If someone wants to post to boost their ego I say let them. If someone wants to post a rant about people posting to boost their ego I am cool with that too.8-)

This is a good thread and will get you thinking about how you respond to posts made by other members and that is good. I really enjoy looking at the pictures of flies others have tied and reading on how they were tied and the material used. There are posted flies that I just look at and go on because they do not fit in my style of fly fishing or are for fish I do not have here to fish for. I have been guilty of down sizing someone's fly pattern that was posted for steelhead and trying it on my trout and have found they work great for trout in the smaller sizes. There is much to learn from just observing a fly or observing how another tyer ties a fly. I tie my own and have not purchased a fly in years and I get much enjoyment from just sitting at my vise and changing an established pattern around to fit my fishing waters and conditions. There are some flies posted that I enjoy looking at but may never spend a lot of time reading about them or even trying to tie them because they just do not fit my style of fishing with a fly rod. For instance, I hardly ever fish a dry fly or anything smaller than maybe a size 16. Now post a picture and tying instructions for a fly tied on a size 20 or smaller and I just might tie it and try it on a size 16 or 14 if the pattern looks like something I might want to try. I am just a fisherman that enjoys the fly rod and do all my fishing with a fly rod. I don't worry much about what hatch is going on and usually will start fishing with whatever fly that may still be tied on the fly rod I decide to fish with. I get just as much enjoyment from being on the river as I do fly fishing and when I am working with getting a new fly fisherperson into fly fishing, I get a lot of enjoyment from them catching their first fish on a fly rod.

When a person posts a picture of a fly they have just tied and they are new to fly tying, I do struggle with not posting some things I see they are doing wrong like crowding the head, the tail being too long and other things that I know, from experience, will give them problems with either the fly coming apart after just a few casts or the tail constantly wrapping around the bend of the hook or other things that I have learned from my tying experiences. Since we only know each other from posts made, it is difficult to determine if the person is trying to be helpful or just making fun of your tying skills. I try not to post anything about the fly if I feel the post may cause the new tyer to feel that they are not good enough to post a picture of it on this forum. It is difficult for me to not post because tying poor flies that do not catch fish or just do not stay together because of the way the tyer tied them could cause the new tyer to just give up on fly tying and that is a shame. I have been known to send my suggestions to the new tyer by PM and explaining why I chose to PM them and try hard to make them understand that I am just trying to be helpful and a PM is more of a "one-on-one" than a public BB.

Sorry for the long post and I am not sure I stayed on the subject of the original post but I do enjoy the fly pictures and tying instructions and reading about materials they have used that maybe I never thought about. When I watch a tying video, I catch myself watching more on how the tyer uses their tools or how they tied some material on the hook. I love tying as much as fly fishing.

We just need to understand that FAOL is a Sharing site and try to make sure our posts reflect that and nothing more....

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We just need to understand that FAOL is a Sharing site and try to make sure our posts reflect that and nothing more....

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Absolutely. And that's why I feel that if all you want to do is post a picture of a fly with absolutely zero other information, that you should feel welcome and encouraged to do so. I know that myself, when I see fly pics posted, it will inspire me, many times, to tie a creation of my own. Just form the picture. In fact, I'll often completely ignore a posted recipe/step-by-step/etc because I have no interest in it. The picture is all I needed to inspire me. That said, it'd be a real shame if someone who might have otherwise posted a pic (and inspired others) decides to refrain from sharing, for fear of getting chewed out by other members.

More thoughts on this subject and please understand that this is not a recommendation but just something that came to mind as I read all the posts on this thread. Maybe, just maybe, we need to create a thread on the "Fly Tying Forum" for new tyers only to post their questions about problems they are having with tying or a place they can post pictures of their first flies and ask for help to point out to them where they need to improve or explain to them the mistakes that are seen in their tying. That way the new tyer will know that the people who respond, are only trying to offer suggestions and help.

The original "Fy Tying Forum" could be left for the "experienced" tyers to discuss how they think the fly should have been tied and any other comments they wish to make plus they could post pictures to the "show and tell" and not feel that they need to post tying instructions so new tyers would understand what material they used or how the pattern was tied. This added forum to "Fly Tying" would address established tyers problems and questions and also address new tyers questions. I feel there are 2 types of fly tyers: Those who enjoy tying and showing their skills and not be bothered with trying to explain how the pattern was tied and then there are those, like me, who not only enjoys tying but also enjoys helping new tyers and seeing their results. As the new tyers gain experience from what they have learned on the "New Tyer's Forum", they can then navigate to the original "Fly Tyer's Forum" and understand more of what is being discussed and contribute to it with more confidence. There could be Fly Swaps running on the New Fly Tyer's Forum and Fly Swaps running on the original Fly Tyer's Forum and everyone can "jump back and forth" to see what others are tying and discussing.

Just offered as "food for thought" and nothing more.....

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I feel there are 2 types of fly tyers: Those who enjoy tying and showing their skills and not be bothered with trying to explain how the pattern was tied and then there are those, like me, who not only enjoys tying but also enjoys helping new tyers and seeing their results.

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I think I get where you're coming from with that, but, in my humble opinion, that's a bit polarizing. With this delineation comes the unspoken inference that anyone who just wants to post a picture is somehow anti-beginner. I think that rather than this being classified by the individual person, it should rather be classified by situation.

For example: If someone started a thread asking for everyone's favorite flies for small stream brookies, you'd have various people referring to classic patterns, modern take-offs, and a few posting their own creations. In my own opinion, I could do this kind of fishing with no other flies than a box of #14 yellow stimulators. I might just want to post a picture of the fly and be done with it, and not want to catch flack from someone or have people make snide implications about me hating on beginners. At the same time, I might then jump over to a thread about slip-winged wet flies for trout, and post a picture of an Ibis & White. While I may or may not want my fly to be critiqued, I don't really think it's necessary to post a recipe or a step-by-step either.

As far as a reorganization of the forum itself, I'm not sure that a Beginners/Experienced Tyers split is one that would benefit either party. Instead, I'd suggest one of two things: two added subsections to the tying forum, one called "Share your Ties" and one called "Critique". In the SYF section, you could feel free to post a pic of your fly with a recipe, step by step, history, or nothing at all, just the pic. You could specifically mention that you are or are not looking for suggestions and feedback, or if you are simply posting because you liked the fly and wanted to post it so that it might inspire someone else. The feedback and format here would be far less structured than the other section: critique. In the critique section, you'd post your fly, and a recipe would likely be a prerequisite of asking for a critique. You'd post your fly's picture, the recipe, and a brief piece of text explaining what aspects of the fly you're specifically asking to be critiqued (hows my dubbing? Did I set these wings properly? Will this homemade creation float in the film?), and the replies would/should be well formed, non-condescending commentary.

The other option, similar to this, would simply be to not restructure the site, but rather have thread starters 'tag' their thread title with an appropriate designator. For example: "[Critique] Lime Trude: How's this Wing?" or "[Share] Pictures of my Latest Hair Wing Steelhead Streamers" This option wouldn't be as drastic of a change and might get lost in the shuffle, but it'd be far easier to implement early on, possibly to see how the creation of the subsections might clear things up.

This is an interesting thread. Being a shy and retiring sort, I'll post my 2 cents worth... (It's long 'cause I'm cheap and give a lot of volume, if not value, for 2 pennies.)

Sometimes pictures of fish are called "fish porn". Sometimes this is differentiated, e.g. "trout porn" or, for steelhead, "metalhead fish porn".
Sometimes pictures of stream are called "stream porn".
Sometimes pictures of fly boxes filled with flies are called "fly box porn".
Sometimes pictures of flies are called "fly porn".
All of this implies that there are some of us who enjoy looking at these pics. I've seen hundreds of pictures of trout. I'm up for more. I've seen stacks of fly boxes filled to overflowing. I hope to see more.
Len posts pictures of his part of the world that make me jealous as all get-out, but I certainly don't want him to stop! (Cracking whip over Len's camera.)
So when somebody posts a beautiful picture of a fly, I tend to look at it and enjoy it.
"But to what end?", some may ask. Fair enough question, I want to answer.
Yes, there are times when I have wanted a recipe, even asked for it to be posted. But there is an element to this sport that goes beyond the immediate issues of preparing to go fishing and going fishing.
There is this little thing that our species is fond of called "art".
Someone famously said that a thing of beauty needs no other reason for being. (Pity I haven't a clue who came wth that line.)
Sometimes I like to just look at a beautifully tied fly.
I have seen screen savers that scroll through picture after picture of flies. That is a valid use for pictures without recipes, to my way of thinking.
Let's not hack the fly-tying forum up like a bad pizzia. People can give a heading that indicates their intents and desires.
I appreciate recipes, but sometimes I'm quite happy with just the picture.

Thanks,
Ed

I, also, get where you are coming from and feel we both are on the same track. I did not mean to make it sound like some experienced tyers were not interested in helping new tyers, but, to share that there are some that due to their schedules in life, just do not have the time to share their help with new tyers. Even though they would enjoy it and want to, they just do not have the spare time to do this at this time and with the time that they do have, they want to devote it to their tying and just let other experienced tyers to see what they are tying at the present time.

I just feel there are new tyers on this site that are afraid to post their questions on our regular "Tying Forum" for fear that they would be "dumb" questions that everyone knows the answer except for them. The great Al Campbell realized this and he created instructions for 3 stages of fly tyers. He has the Beginners, The Intermediate and the Advanced tying instructions and each group has different needs and different questions. His tying instructions for each group are just fantastic! I just feel that since each group has different needs and questions, they should have a place where they will feel more comfortable asking their questions since they will feel the people reading them and answering them are on the same level. I just feel each group deserves their own space where they will feel comfortable and feel free to post their questions and not worry about sounding "dumb".

Maybe this thought of mine will explain more on what I am really feeling on this subject: I think it would be great if each new tyer could have an assigned mentor here for them to work with on a one-on-one basis. All their questions and pictures would be handled by PM's between them and their mentor. More like an on-line fly tying class incorporating Al Campbell's instructions and instructions from their mentor. This would allow the new tyer to "open up" and ask any question that they have. I know that this would require a lot of time of the FAOL mentor and we may not have enough people to do this, but, one never knows until we ask.

Oh, well, this has been a great thread with good thoughts. I guess I just know where the new tyers are in their hobby and can still remember the questions I had at that time and were afraid to ask and waited until someone else asked it so I could get an answer.

We are both on the same track.....Thanks

I think the "rub" is not in whether a pic is posted without a recipe but rather the acerbic STATEMENT of refusal to do so that is a bit like fingernails on a chalkboard. THAT especially in a forum where so many have and still contribute with no thought except to help others. Mikey , in his slightly "flowery" :) "signature" says it best " FAOL,,, it's all about sharing....................." or words to that affect.

Mark
Currently in beautiful Carmel CA but..................

I started tying flies with no instruction, and a very poor idea of how it was done. I had some rudiments of winding thread and wrapping yarn for a body, but little else. I started with what I thought a stonefly nymph would look like. When I was finished, (I tied them on my lunch break at work) I proudly showed them to co-workers and others, who also had no idea what a stonefly nymph should look like. Their comments encouraged me to dig deeper, and when I found out what a real stone-fly representation looks like, I wanted to pour gas on my attempts and burn them to the ground. I started looking everywhere I could for information after that, and after seeking out knowlegeable people and reading profusely, I finally got to where I could tie a bug that actually looked like what I saw in the books. My point: All abilities of tying skill are represented here, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from posting his offerings. Your replies to the posts, or lack of them are like votes. If you have suggestions or criticisms to make, the PM feature is a very good place to make them. My .02.

This is really interesting. I'm one of the classless showboaters, I guess. I just enjoy tying and photographing flies. I'm an old codger who has been tying for nearly 40 years; have taught fly tying; and enjoy offering some different patterns to the tying community. It takes a bit of courage to post a close-up of your flies though. The photo shows any of your imperfections for all to see, so I applaud those who post their photos for all to see. Even the more traditional patterns offer enthusiasm to other tiers.

So, I will continue to post photos. Just as an example, I posted a photo of a Funnel Dun fly I tied. It appears that most folks out there had no idea what that fly was! So, it may have revived an old pattern for the younger tiers.

Have a great day!!!!!!!
Byron

On another website, I recently saw a post by a tyer of a supposedly killer fly variation which was enthusiastically backed up by the website owner... the pattern was a SJ worm variation, and there were two nice photos of the fly- but the comments by the tyer that he incorporated a few mysterious "triggers" into the fly and THANKFULLY they were not visible in the photos because he didn't want everyone to see his holier-than-thou magical wonderfulness... THAT kind of crap is irritating, why post at all? On top of that it's obvious bullsh**, there is nothing so spectacular about any fly that someone else hasn't already dreamed up. Thankfully I haven't seen that kind of stuff here.

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Originally Posted by jszymczyk

On another website, I recently saw a post by a tyer of a supposedly killer fly variation which was enthusiastically backed up by the website owner... the pattern was a SJ worm variation, and there were two nice photos of the fly- but the comments by the tyer that he incorporated a few mysterious "triggers" into the fly and THANKFULLY they were not visible in the photos because he didn't want everyone to see his holier-than-thou magical wonderfulness... THAT kind of crap is irritating, why post at all? On top of that it's obvious bullsh**, there is nothing so spectacular about any fly that someone else hasn't already dreamed up. Thankfully I haven't seen that kind of stuff here.

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That may be due to the fact that some of us have learned and made a decision. Some lessons in life come at a cost and you have to determine which is the value to you. Years of work developing a pattern that proves itself, do you trade that for moments of fame as you'll soon be forgotten as your instructions are printed. Bottom line "Atta boys" don't pay the bills. So I and others like me don't post our work nor will most tell you the reason why. It would make some people very uncomfortable to hear the truth of it. So I wont try an impress you with my efforts or fustrate you with not telling you how I accomplish it, not bragging just laying out the facts.