Floating versus Submerged Furled Leaders

This topic has come up any number of times within various threads on furled leaders. Now that we have a Furling Forum, it seems it is time to devote a thread just to this topic.

It's clear from past discussions, that the majority prefer floating leaders for fishing dry flies and all around use, and that a small minority prefer leaders that submerge for all around use.

Personally, I prefer a thread furled leader that submerges for fishing for trout on moving water. My leader material of choice is 210 Danville Flymaster Plus. This material submerges, but does not really sink. It is possible to fish a size 20 dry fly, at least on fairly soft water, with this leader when it is fully submerged - it goes under but it does not sink the fly. On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible to change out to a suitable tippet and fish a couple large weighted nymphs under an indicator with the same exact leader - may not be too pretty sometimes, but it gets the job done.

There are situations where I can see some advantages to a floating leader. Maybe a good discussion here will lead us all to be more flexible in how we approach making and fishing furled leaders.

John

Most of our fishing here is wet flys. For a fast deep sinking leader Berkley "Transition Gold/Red" 4# test fluorocarbon has proven to be the best to date. To avoid the line twist you get when swinging wet flys I have been adding a small swivel to the tippet end

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...msBoard013.jpg

When I do get the chance to fish dry flys I use Uni 6/0 and float it.

I understand your method and hope to learn a little more of it when Kaboom1 and I get out your way this September.

Jack, I like the swivel addition. Does it have much effect on how the leaders turn over.

Ed

I fish mostly still water for bass, crappie, bluegill, and whatever else I can get to bite. I o most of this fishing with a leader furled out of #4 seagaur fluorocarbon. This acts a bit like a mini sink tip and really helps to drag my unweighted streamers down in the water column with out giving them the action of a leaded fly.

I have had much better luck with mono than any threads for floating (dry fly) leaders. Is that typical?

When you say "Better Luck" do you mean longer drifts or better turn over for large fly's?

I have only used a couple of UNI leaders that were sent to me a year or so ago. They sink more than I would like for dries, even when dressed with Aquel, and don't really sink as much as I would like for stillwater fishing which is the bulk of my fishing. They are just about right for wets on a stream.

I had bought some fine Spiderwire to make thread pullers with for my rod building and don't like it for that purpose. Has anyone tried it for furled leaders? I haven't tried it myself as I have had too much other stuff going to build a furling board, but I have the impression it would sink pretty well. It's limp as all get out as well.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hise

When you say "Better Luck" do you mean longer drifts or better turn over for large fly's?

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Better Luck floating, threads used all sink, even when treated with floatent.

i use mono for trout and fluorocabon for warmwater fishing( still water). For a 4 wt line in moving water a fluorocabon leader sank my fly line so it hurt mending. in stillwater i don't mend.

I don't care how the leader is made, but when you fish dry flies there is a huge advantage to a leader (and line for that matter) that float as compared to a leader (or line) that sinks. The Pick Up. A major advantage to dry flying is the ability to pick up 20 or 30 or 40 + feet of line and recast in a single motion. If your leader (or line) has submerged then that creates a whole lot more drag on your pick up and will kill a good long line pick up. Then you have to strip in more line thus taking more time plus making a couple false casts, and your fly just spent less time on the water, so a reduced chance of catching a fish. A submerged line will create a larger disturbance in the water when you are pulling it out, hence a greater chance of spooking a fish.

Notice I keep saying (and line) because if you don't keep your line clean it will sink. Many fly fishers do not keep a clean line. You should clean it every morning, give it a good stretch to take the coil memory out of it and treat it with a line cleaner/conditioner.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Now, get out there and try it out, meaning, get out and fish.

Larry ---sagefisher---

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Originally Posted by okflyfisher

i use mono for trout and fluorocabon for warmwater fishing( still water). For a 4 wt line in moving water a fluorocabon leader sank my fly line so it hurt mending. in stillwater i don't mend.

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I am kind of lost on your statement, are you saying you like your fly on top of the fast moving water? I have found fluorocarbon leader to work excellent in fast water for mending, it gets your fly down were the fish are. There is times I will submerge and bend my fly rod tip down on the bottom of the river to get the line down further in the fast water section. WarrenP taught me this trick and caught many fish using this method.

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Originally Posted by kbproctor

I had bought some fine Spiderwire to make thread pullers with for my rod building and don't like it for that purpose. Has anyone tried it for furled leaders? I haven't tried it myself as I have had too much other stuff going to build a furling board, but I have the impression it would sink pretty well. It's limp as all get out as well.

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Kevin, I have made a couple of quick and dirty furled leaders from Fireline, which is Spectra the same material as Spiderwire I think. I use it on the rod I fish nymphs with and like it fine. The Spectra does not store energy or have memory, which ever way you want to say it. My leader has only 2 section not 3 as I understand "real" furled leader have. I devised a method of wrapping one leg around the other, rather than twisting them as I understand furling to do. So it may not technically be furled. But like most things, I just went ahead and did something not knowing the fine points of the idea.

John Scott was kind enough to send me one of his leaders last year which I use on my 3 wt. I fish dries with, I think it is mono, I really like the way it cast and behaves on the water.

Back to original question. Can I make a thread furled leader that floats as well as mono?

I've not had problems with Uni Thread leaders not floating. I suggest you contact kaboom1 and get a container of the paste floatant he has produced for thread furled leaders. It will keep a leader floating for 2 - 3 hours, just about the time you need to take a break. After the break the leader will be dry so you can treat it again. It is also a food grade product and can even be used to treat chapped lips!
Another trick to make thread leaders float longer is to soak them in Camp Dry or Scotch Guard. But, you'll still need to treat them later when this wears off.

Not knowing any better when I used thread furled leaders I rubbed them down with silicon paste and they collected so much dirt I couldn't get then clean. I'm going to find a dry (spray?) type floatent and go at it again.

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Originally Posted by jstraightj

Back to original question. Can I make a thread furled leader that floats as well as mono?

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Her are some densities from different materials, so far in theory for a floating leader without floatant Wapsi UTC should do the trick.
polyester(Avg) 1.38 g/cc (Guetermann threads, UNI thread))
Nylon 1.15 g/cc (The plain mono stuff)
Dyneema/GSPE 0,97 g/cc (Wapsi UTC)
Fluorocarbon 1,78 g/cc
Polyethylene(Avg) 0,92 g/cc

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse

...John Scott was kind enough to send me one of his leaders last year which I use on my 3 wt. I fish dries with, I think it is mono, I really like the way it cast and behaves on the water.

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... Jesse.

I haven't used mono for furled leaders. The one I sent you was my "standard" Danville 210 Flymaster Plus tying thread leader.

I'm wondering if you treat it with any kind of floatant or have had the submerged leader experience with it ??

John

I have not treated it, it seem to lie in the surface film, I have it on my 3 wt. that I use primarily for dry flies and it work very well. None of the curl of a tapered mono leader. Thanks again.

Before providing my thoughts on this, understand that I do not fish dry flies and only fish streamers and other sub-surface flies and enjoy a fast sinking furled leader.

For those who feel a furled leader made from thread sinks/pulls their dry fly down, what length/size tippet are you using? The dry fly is not attached to the furled leader but to your tippet. With this thought in mind, a thread furled leader that is floating just under the surface should not affect your dry fly unless your tippet is too short.

I am just trying to determine why some dry fly fishermen/women are not having any problems with using a thread furled leader and some are having problems. Just maybe the problem is not in the furled leader being used, but, in the size and length of tippet being used.

Just thinking out loud and trying to provide some input to solving this issue which may turn out to not being a problem with the furled leader but with length and size of tippet being used. I guess I just enjoy reading between the lines and thinking out side the box to come up with a solution.

... Warren, but a matter of preference.

Or it could be a matter of habit - folks using tapered mono leaders that floated before they transitioned to furled leaders, which they think should float ( and for them, should float ).

In my case, when I learned to furl leaders, there was no discussion of making them float and I had no expectation whether they would or not. I started using them and they submerged and I did just fine with them so why change what is working for me ?? The times that I have experimented with trying to make my thread furled leaders float, I didn't like the results. Which reinforces the thought "why change what is working for me ??"

As far as tippet length and size go, I don't think that is necessarily an issue. If the leader is going to drag the fly down, it will likely do so whether one is using 2' of 2X or 4' of 4X or x' of yX. When I experimented with using furled fluoro leaders for dry fly fishing, at some point the leader drug down even larger dry flies.

The bigger problems, to my experience, are current differences and drag which effect even a floating fly line as much or more than they do a leader, whether said leader is floating or submerged. The stiffness of the leader is a factor in this situation - a stiff leader, like the Rio Extreme Tippet leaders I've used recently, tend to be pretty straight from the end of the line to the tippet ( and therefore, the fly ). There is not much "slack" in them to absorb the effects of the different currents so they drag the fly sooner than thread furled leaders which have a lot of slack between the end of the line and the tippet.

Maybe it is a matter of skill sets, also. Maybe my skill set is different ( not better or worse, just different ) because I started with thread leaders that submerge and know how to use them. Maybe people using furled leaders that float would "outfish" me every time fishing the same water that I fish because of a skill set centered on using floating leaders.

John

P.S. Whatever "outfish" means ?? The question should be can you "outfun" me ?? Not likely.

At the risk of sounding totally stupid, I'd like to pose a question, prefaced by past experience. I've used mud from the streambed, rubbed on the leader to make it sink enough to be below the film, but not enough to drag the dry fly down. I haven't been able to determine if this was a good or bad practice. Using "Zink", or other product didn't seem to make much difference either. So here's the question. Would it not work better (Whether using a floating furled leader or a floating tapered mono leader) to use a flourocarbon tippet that sinks a bit, for the last several inches above the fly, but not enough to pull it down? I haven't tried this, and I've been wrestling with the idea for several days. This may have been answered elsewhere, so forgive me if it's repetetive.

Holy Crap John, I remember giving you a furled leader a couple of years ago. I feel like Dr. Frankenstein. LOL

And Lew, I have also used mud for many years...did you know Orvis sells a cool little tub of some very nice Mud?