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Actually I'll make that two:
Do you agree or disagree that the tighter the twist the more efficient the leader...why?
How to you decide to quit twisting?....Personally I use the method Denny Conranch explained to me.....twist one sacrificial leader to breakage [without pigtailing]...timed by stop watch....then twist the others 5 to 10 seconds less.
ducksterman,
Your statement: .....twist one sacrificial leader to breakage [without pigtailing]...timed by stop watch....then twist the others 5 to 10 seconds less.
When you do this, have you ever measured to see how close or far away this is from the usual "twist until it is 10% shorter"? Just wondering and nothing more....
What about the tension on the thread during the lay up? Does it matter:confused:
Warren, yes I have . IMHO it will depend on the tension used[I use hanging weights which can be different depending on]...number of strands...and materials.....but I find that the % of reduction frequently is near the 10% but has also varied up to about 15/16 %.
Jack, I think it does but mostly to be consistent leader to leader. If using Kathy's clamped tippet peg method I certainly think one needs to have the same tension on each leg...don't ask me how I know.
What I ment was how much tension is applied when laying out the leader. I would seem that the less the tension the more twists it would take to reach your desired twisted tension
I believe you are correct....in your method you would have to draw back the drill farther with more slack...thereby starting with a longer untwisted leader ...in my method the tensioner would pull the leader out from the other end...if we do it the same each time we should have consistent leaders. I imagine we both try to start out in the lay out with only the slack/lesser tension created by the peg diameters.
Has anyone used or observed that when the butt end twisting has gone tight on the hook or whatever you use...the twisting is very close to being maximal?
I have made the observation, but don't use it.
With respect to the question about tension during lay up; yes, it matters. Insufficient tension will result in a 'loose, open' twist. Also, the tension should be constant throughout the process; not gradually increasing during the process as occurs with spring-type tensioners. Constant 'dead-weight ' is the key to getting maximum twist throughout the entire length.
aged sage
aged_sage, I took him to mean when on the pegs...my point being that once off the pegs tension is applied appropriately....I am taking you to mean once off the pegs.
Ducksterman:
I responded based on twisting both legs at the same time; taking the two 'butt' ends off the two 'twisting hooks' and transferring them to the third 'furling hook', and making the observation that the loops at the butt hook ends are very tight after both steps. The same amount of tension is applied in all steps; no exceptions.
Perhaps a step-by-step of how I do it is in order.
I have previously 'tared' tin cans of lead fishing weights, with a can for each thread type that I will be using, and with the requisite tension weight for that thread. After stringing the loops, I remove the loops from the tippet end peg and attach the mid-point to my sliding tensioner hook, which has the appropriate weight-can attached off the back end and hanging off the back end of the board. The tensioner cable (plastic coated twisted stainless steel bite tippet), attaching the weight to the travelling hook, rides over a pulley at the back end of my board. As the two legs twist, the weight is raised higher above the floor (I never start with the can on the floor; it is ALWAYS about 6 inches above the floor so that maximum tension is applied from the get-go). Ultimately. as the legs begin to twist, taking up thread length, the tensioner hook carrier, which has been moving towards the twisting hooks, ultimately encounters the microswicth actuator, turning things off. At this time I switch the two butt end loops to the furling hook, and let the motor run again. Initially, the tensioner hook moves backwards, as the twisted legs relax. When the two legs have completely relaxed, the assembly starts moving forward again, until, once more, the tensioner hook has encountered the actuator of the microswitch and turning things off. The threads are under the same tension constantly throughout the entire process.
The thread loops around all of the hooks do get very tight at both stopping points. To get the loops off the hooks, I often have to manually 'reverse' twist them to enable me to get my 'nit picker' into them for removal. I usually remove the butt loops first, and immediately make the 'lariat' loop of a Shorb loop before removing the tippet end from the tensioner hook.
I hope this clarifies where i was coming from.
aged sage
PS: If you have seen Skip Shorb furl a leader, I do exactly as he does. The major difference in his system and mine is that he uses a spring loaded tensioner, and I use dead weight.
Hate to belabor this...but that's what I meant...you are talking about the tension during the twisting/furling process and Jack is talking about any tension that is applied when manually laying out the loops on the pegs....right Jack?
Assuming you are correct in your interpretation, sufficient tension to keep the threads down the pegs should be sufficient. When I make my final terminal loop, I do try to make it about 3/8' shorter that the actual length necessary to get it over the last peg (furling hook) to ensure that there is no 'sag'. I then remove the loops from all pegs and attach things to the tensioner hook, at which time I stroke the the threads in both legs in an effort to equally distribute the tension both on both legs, and between 'steps', before I start twisting; another Skip Shorb trick.
aged sage
On your first question - not necessarily - because if you apply enough tension and twist hard enough, you can break the leader and then it is not at all effecient. :cry: Would you believe that I was experimenting with Kevlar tying thread one time and did exactly that - broke it, without damage to my furling jig. Subsequently, I did read that while Kevlar is extremely strong, it doesn't take to twisting all that well. Otherwise, I do believe a "tighter" twist is preferable to a "looser" twist. My thought is that the more twists there are, the more mass you are building into the leader at any and every given point, which should make it perform ( transfer energy ) better and be stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksterman
On your second question - I've mentioned before that I prefer to use formulas, either that I got from my original instructor or that I have developed myself for different lengths and configurations, and a couple for different materials, although I tend to stick to the Danville 210. I presently furl ( both twist and furl ) under power, using a variable speed and reversible Ryobi battery powered drill. I have a mark on the whatchamadinger and twist / furl at a speed low enough that I can count the revs.
Really enjoyed Frank's description of what happens as he twists / furls his leaders under power. It is almost exactly how I would describe what happens using my jig. My tip end set up is quite a bit different than Frank's, and I always incorporate a tip ring in my leaders.
Instead of taking wraps around a tip end post, I take the wraps around a hook on a post that rides on a carriage. Two benefits. First, after I've finished laying out the leader material ( and I use quite a bit of tension on the thread as I do so ) and removing the posts, I can move the carriage away from the butt end far enough to take up any slack that is caused by the wraps around the posts.
Second, the hook facilitates incorporating the tip ring. Just slide the tip ring down one leg, remove the leader from the hook, slide the tip ring over the hook, take up any slack developed in that process, and you are good to go. One other advantage to incorporating the tip ring - there is no resistance caused by having the tip end "fixed" during the twisting and furling process. The strands are free to move in, around, through ( whatever word suits you best ) the tip ring, which I think improves or enhances uniformity between the legs during twisting.
John
I think John and I ultimately wind up doing essentially the same thing, relative to the tip end; except that I don't use the rings. I set up my loops using a tippet post, as mentioned before. After things are completed for the layout, I transfer the tippet loop to the hook on my tensioner, and then work the loops between my fingers in an effort to have the tension evenly distributed in each section. My tension weights keep things under constant tension once I switch the tip end to the tensioner hook.Then I start the twisting process. I both twist and furl at the same speed, which is at about 3200 rpm, as determined using a tachometer.
aged ssage
We 3 are pretty much doing things the same with some minor variations. My power source is a high torque one speed motor with 3 hooks...900rpms....going to just before breakage the way I do I must use a constant repeatable speed. Last year I was using a 704rpm gear system.
My tensioner is essentially the same as Franks and my method is like his...milking to equalize tension and all that...because of the tendency of the legs to rotate I have incorporated a grooved 2x4..[keeps the legs horizontal from the power hooks also]...don't know if you remember Frank but that came from a suggestion you made. I assume that's why you use the traveling platform, John?
Frank...you said..."I usually remove the butt loops first, and immediately make the 'lariat' loop of a Shorb loop before removing the tippet end from the tensioner hook."
Not sure I understand that. I do my Shorb's the way Jim Williams demos in his thread. Do you do them differently?
ducksterman:
As I learned how to make them directly from Skip Shorb, I have never bothered to look at Jim's method. Thus, I cannot compare what I do to how Jim does it. Sorry.
What I do is, after I have completed the furling, I insert my nitpicker through the two loops on the end of each leg at the furling hook, and make the first loop in the Shorb loop process, which Skip refers to as making the 'lariat' loop. I put a large paperclip through this loop. I next put a large paperclip through the loop on the tensioner end before making the 'lariat' loop, to which I attach a 6oz egg weight. I have a pulley mounted in the ceiling of my garage with a 1/4' nylon rope suspended through it, with a dog leash clip on the end. I hook the leader to the leash clip by the paper clip on the butt end and haul it up until things clear the floor by about 6 inches, and let the thing twirl away as it relaxes. Once it has relaxed, I take it down and complete the Shorb loops later.
While the first one is relaxing, I string the next one. I will make several before finishing the Shorb loops.
I hope this makes sense.
aged sage